US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/19- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Flippin43]

Please list the post number. Reading Nicholau's reasoning does not change anything, Many do not agree with his reasoning because it does not follow ALPA guidelines... Career expectations...Windfalls.

So, maybe you can tell us about the Career Expectations that an AAA pilot had. Three weeks or less to liquidation.

Yet the most junior guy on the east list told the Arbitrator that he fully expected to retire as the #6 330 Captain.

Clearly the Arbitrator and nobody else bought that one.


as far as Windfalls...........

Dave Odell was in the 99.9999% position of Active pilots before the merger and after the merger of ACTIVE pilots he was in the 99.9998% position. and the AWA #1 guy became #518 overnight..................Windfalls just flyin everywhere!!!!!!


Flip

 

[cleardirect]

I believe our differences are well established, and there's no point served by mutual assault or squabbling, but, perhaps you could explain your thoughts on the following: How is a person with 5 months, and still on probationary status, truly any variety of a "peer" with a person with 19 years flown on the line? Is it indeed your honest opinion that such "little" differences are of no account whatsever? if so..well...seriously, and without any offence intended...I honestly have difficulties understanding such thought processes.
How does that really make any sense to you?...or anyone for that matter? It isn't as if either one of us was raised during a time period of completely 'relative" values, nor presumably taught to disregard and completely disrespect the service and experience of others.

What is it that you are having trouble understanding? You have asked anyone and everyone to “EXPLAIN” why this is or that. READ THE NICOLAU. If you still do not understand and need it explain 100 times you never will understand. Just stop asking.

The pilots did not do it Nicolau did. Contact Nicolau and ask the guy that made it, contact your pilot neutral and have him “explain” it to you. You do not have to understand it you just have to accept it.

The east was not going to get DOH/LOS. That was not the only criteria, read the award and figure it out.

I find it interesting that it was 17 years but now it has crept up to 19 years. Just like the average age is factually 53 years but the east pretends that it is 59. Facts and reality never seem to get in the way of east fantasy.

 

[goneflyin]

I hate to see it happen to anyone- like what is going on here. Wait till Delta starts parking those NWA Diesel Nines. All you need is oil to creep up some more, and they will put them on the block. Then you get your own Springer Show. Everything is sitting just fine with your merger. I say no way those 9's last 16 months more. I hate to see them go, but there is no way Delta is going to keep them. They got rid of them when they owned them before. Lets' hope oil stays where it is or lower, then you will get by a little longer.

The DC9-30s and 40s will be parked waaaay earlier than that; probably starting this fall. It's been in the plan for a while now. The DC9-50s will be around a bit longer.

I've never said that Delta has no issues-- we certainly do. We seem to handle them a little differently than you do, though.

 

[BoeingBoy]

It isn't as if either one of us was raised during a time period of completely 'relative" values

As I've said before, for someone who spends their entire career in an industry where your "relative position" on a seniority list determines everything about that career you sure have a hard time understanding relative position...

Jim

 

[pitchlow]

Since you brought me into this conversation...

I'm a Delta pilot (DOH 1987, flying as a 767ER capt.), and I was vehemently opposed to the USAirways buyout, but not for the reason you state. I saw the east guys as a group with unrealistic expectations, and an inability to honor their past agreements. You were unrealistic and unreasonable in your quest for date-of-hire integration, and when you didn't get your way, you chose to attempt an end run around the law.

At the time the USAirways/Delta attempt was announced, I was flying a trip with a SAN layover on Monday. Every Tuesday morning, I would ride to the airport with a US crew. Without fail, the F/O would ask me when I was hired, and if I could hold 777 captain (I could, and can, BTW). Their hunger and greed was palpable; they wanted what I had.

Just for a minute, though, lets ignore the personal aspect that makes any acquisition of USAirways assets so unappealing. What, exactly, would Delta (or United, or American, or Continental) need from your network to complete or enhance their own? Nothing, of course. All the above airlines have a comprehensive network already. None of these airlines need a new hub. We'd all like more restricted slots, but you know how the government is about those lately; they're more interested in giving them to jetBlue and Southwest.

For better or worse, you guys are stuck with each other. I hope you can make it work. I hope that the average east pilot doesn't share the attitude and viewpoint that I see on this board.

We all have our ten percenter's. However, Hat's off to the rest of Delta's employee's who recognized the obvious. With Parker and company, Delta would devolve into Mesa or USAirways.....

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

No, I know Monda. And if what you think you guys have planned for him is going to happen, I say I battle all of you to the end to make sure it doesn't happen. Try and justify how you think this is fair, and I will tell you every time this is why ALPA got tossed.

Yea, we know why alpa was tossed. We even knew why alpa was tossed when you tried to tell us otherwise. The Judge and Jury didn't take to long to see it for what it was either.

 

[Piedmont1984]

BoeingBoy

I think a pilot with twenty years at the same company is entitled to have that time translated into his/her position on a seniority list - before, after or during a merger. Quite simple.

I do not think that the good or bad decisions made by management (career expectations), or the vagaries of some airlines compared to others (career expectations) should be a consideration in the integration of two pilot groups.

The seniority integration of two lists of the same class and craft should have nothing to do with how sharp or dull the CEO of the company happens to be, or how strong it's balance sheet is this particular quarter. Otherwise you demean and cheapen the contributions made by the employee through their years of work.

DOH or LOS is something which becomes valuable to all eventually. It is simple, straightforward, unambiguous and measurable. Career expectations are uncertain, capricious and arbitrary. Not a good way to determine seniority.

Of course ALPA, to their detriment, decided to change their merger policy and allow the mentality and philosophy of Wall Street to determine the fate of airline veterans.

 

[luvn737s]

Didn't the vagaries of the economy or bad decisions by management put the pilot where he was on the seniority list prior to the merger? Perhaps they contributed to the need for a merger as well. Should the merger become a magic wand to right the wrongs, a wand paid for by the careers of the minority? Do you really believe this?

 

[Phoenix]

I believe our differences are well established, and there's no point served by mutual assault or squabbling, but, perhaps you could explain your thoughts on the following: How is a person with 5 months, and still on probationary status, truly any variety of a "peer" with a person with 19 years flown on the line? Is it indeed your honest opinion that such "little" differences are of no account whatsever? if so..well...seriously, and without any offence intended...I honestly have difficulties understanding such thought processes.
How does that really make any sense to you?...or anyone for that matter? It isn't as if either one of us was raised during a time period of completely 'relative" values, nor presumably taught to disregard and completely disrespect the service and experience of others.

Those with an axe to grind won't be persuaded to embrace.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Didn't the vagaries of the economy or bad decisions by management put the pilot where he was on the seniority list prior to the merger? Perhaps they contributed to the need for a merger as well. Should the merger become a magic wand to right the wrongs, a wand paid for by the careers of the minority? Do you really believe this?

I believe that the metrics used in determining our particular merger should have had time in service to the company as metric number one.

Also, what we had prior to the merger was attrition - which Nicolau took away, although the intervening time has partially restored.

I don't want any west pilot to pay for my career dissappointments, and I don't want any west pilot to reap a windfall as a result of a flawed arbitrator's decision.

 

[Phoenix]

BoeingBoy

I think a pilot with twenty years at the same company is entitled to have that time translated into his/her position on a seniority list - before, after or during a merger. Quite simple.

I do not think that the good or bad decisions made by management (career expectations), or the vagaries of some airlines compared to others (career expectations) should be a consideration in the integration of two pilot groups.

The seniority integration of two lists of the same class and craft should have nothing to do with how sharp or dull the CEO of the company happens to be, or how strong it's balance sheet is this particular quarter. Otherwise you demean and cheapen the contributions made by the employee through their years of work.

DOH or LOS is something which becomes valuable to all eventually. It is simple, straightforward, unambiguous and measurable. Career expectations are uncertain, capricious and arbitrary. Not a good way to determine seniority.

Of course ALPA, to their detriment, decided to change their merger policy and allow the mentality and philosophy of Wall Street to determine the fate of airline veterans.

Hard to argue against that.. if there is such a thing as a piloting profession.

Unfortunately the ALPA lust for dues exceeded their commitment to foster a profession, and many groups/members have been crushed in the gears of progress... all the way to the new Regional Airline Pilots Association.

 

[Phoenix]

Didn't the vagaries of the economy or bad decisions by management put the pilot where he was on the seniority list prior to the merger? Perhaps they contributed to the need for a merger as well. Should the merger become a magic wand to right the wrongs, a wand paid for by the careers of the minority? Do you really believe this?

Is your career your profession? Or is it the color of your tie and the emblem on your hat?

 

[EastUS]

East, my friend, I don't know how to say this without yelling, so here goes: "YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO MAKE THAT ARGUMENT AT THE ARBITRATION!"

No argument there. Momentarily setting aside any/all concerns with vastly divergent ideology; it's a true pity that some far more reasonable conclusion wasn't able to be reached by all involved....regardless of where/when/etc either side seeks to affix blame...well....it's a fine mess we've all got here.

 

[cleardirect]

BoeingBoy

I think a pilot with twenty years at the same company is entitled to have that time translated into his/her position on a seniority list - before, after or during a merger. Quite simple.

I do not think that the good or bad decisions made by management (career expectations), or the vagaries of some airlines compared to others (career expectations) should be a consideration in the integration of two pilot groups.

The seniority integration of two lists of the same class and craft should have nothing to do with how sharp or dull the CEO of the company happens to be, or how strong it's balance sheet is this particular quarter. Otherwise you demean and cheapen the contributions made by the employee through their years of work.

DOH or LOS is something which becomes valuable to all eventually. It is simple, straightforward, unambiguous and measurable. Career expectations are uncertain, capricious and arbitrary. Not a good way to determine seniority.

Of course ALPA, to their detriment, decided to change their merger policy and allow the mentality and philosophy of Wall Street to determine the fate of airline veterans.

That is your opinion and your right to it.If you feel so strongly than I suggest that you begin to work on changing A/M and ALPA merger policy and the McCakill Bond bill so this does not happen in the NEXT merger because this one is done.

ALPA merger policy was changed in 1991, it was this way for 14 years. Plenty of time to make the effort to “correct” to your opinion. Get started now. Where were the screams of outrage before or during the N/M/A process about the ALPA merger policy? None. Because you thought that you were going to get DOH. Only now do you want to change the policy or find it unacceptable. Well get started changing it for the next one.


However it is the decisions of management and the strength of the companies that cause or allow two airlines to merge. If you have two dominating companies they do not merge. It is a stronger and a weaker company with something to offer. SWA took ATA for one reason Hawaii and some military charters.

In the case of US Airways 20 years at the same company bought you the same thing that a new hire bought you at any other airline. Continuing to go over this and try and justify it is just going to make you guys crazy. It is what it is, it is done. Time to accept and move on.

 

[EastUS]

Just stop asking.

In case you were/are completely oblivious; The posting was NOT directed anywhere even close to you, but rather to a former east coworker, now retired, who's thoughts puzzle me. I believe he, unlike yourself, ardently believes in relative seniorty regardless of it not serving him in any current fashion to hold those beliefs. Suggestion = Just stop answering, as I've frankly no longer the slightest concern for anything you have to say. It's always nothing more than minor variations of the same naieve, self righteous yapping.