US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/19- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[End of USAPA]

Auqua, for argument sake MONDA, has spent a RELATIVELY LONGER time at US than BOYD ! The key term you used which is correct is :until a joint CONTRACT is SIGNED! Turn the clock ahead 20 years( I luv G, NIC) and did it to you , your outrage would be inconsolable! Those on the EAST WILL never sign a JOINT CONTRACT with the NIC attached, OUR PLAN, is run aground and addington , WILL GET TOSSED! MM! ps longevity is relative too! After all I am junior to you because WHEN I WAS HIRED no shortage of that remember AMERICAN TRANS AIR!

So true sir! The greedy westies can't see the cancer they have! It is their problem now and we need to be taken care of out east!

 

[HPDriver]

And this is why we are going to fight you to the end!

And this end is near so you need to start thinking about whether or not you'll be sticking around or quitting the airline.

 

[trunion]

EastUS

.....Can ANY of you honestly say that you truly feel five months of ANY one individual's working life should be/"is"... "nearly" or at ALL 'equivalent" to 19 years of another's contributions? What did he do during those five months on probation?...Cure cancer?...Perhaps end human hunger? (umm...clearly not that)..Or at least establish world peace?





The last three seniority arbitrations and a Federal judge say you're wrong.

You should stick to posting goofy smiley faces, they make more sense than your arguments.

Curious... How many of the pilots hired at AWA after the merger announcement were former TWA? Why leave the bottom of the American list to go to AWA, bottom of the list? Merger is announced, USairways begins to layoff pilots, America West starts hiring...Relative Seniority basically makes a union ineffective...Management's UNION BUSTER has been handed to them by the pilots.

 

[trunion]

Most other unions are not pilots.

If USAPA and APA were to merger we use A/M. That does not specify DOH or LOS. Along with the new Mccakill Bond bill you would not get either one of those. So it is not just ALPA it is pilots. I don't care what the MX or F/A do it has nothing to do with us.

See post #198

 

[Coach Cabin]

EastUS, on 21 March 2010 - 06:30 AM, said:

"Not exactly inexperienced" should "reasonably" place him as captain above someone with over 19 years on the line....umm...WHY? Spare me whatever your notions of "fair" are for the moment..and kindly just explain any supposed, foundational "logic" one could EVER use to come up with that idea?

Really, Nicolau placed Boyd as a captain. What list are you looking at? Boyd is only three people senior to Monda on the Nicolau list. chances are they will be in the same upgrade class. So you can stop the water works about the inequities of life.

If you are still having trouble understanding how someone came up with the idea of how that list was made. TRY READING THE NICOLAU. He explains it very clearly. We don't need to explain anything. The arbitrator did that. Maybe he just used to many big words.

EastUS in a previous post admitted that he has NEVER read the Nicolau.

 

[trunion]

EastUS, on 21 March 2010 - 06:30 AM, said:

"Not exactly inexperienced" should "reasonably" place him as captain above someone with over 19 years on the line....umm...WHY? Spare me whatever your notions of "fair" are for the moment..and kindly just explain any supposed, foundational "logic" one could EVER use to come up with that idea?

EastUS in a previous post admitted that he has NEVER read the Nicolau.

Please list the post number. Reading Nicholau's reasoning does not change anything, Many do not agree with his reasoning because it does not follow ALPA guidelines... Career expectations...Windfalls.

 

[cleardirect]

Please list the post number. Reading Nicholau's reasoning does not change anything, Many do not agree with his reasoning because it does not follow ALPA guidelines... Career expectations...Windfalls.

He asked someone to explain it to him. Nicolau did. If he has not read it, or can not understand the reasons that is his problem.

In your opinion the ALPA guidelines were not followed. In ALPA's opinion, in Nicolau's opinion, in the west opinion, and in your own pilot neutrals opinon they were. Go figure. Maybe your opinion is wrong.

 

[HPDriver]

EastUS, on 21 March 2010 - 06:30 AM, said:

"Not exactly inexperienced" should "reasonably" place him as captain above someone with over 19 years on the line....umm...WHY? Spare me whatever your notions of "fair" are for the moment..and kindly just explain any supposed, foundational "logic" one could EVER use to come up with that idea?

EastUS in a previous post admitted that he has NEVER read the Nicolau.

Of course he didn't.

 

[BoeingBoy]

To answer your question, DOH and LOS means little within ALPA. Most other unions accept that those metrics are crucial in determining one's seniority, on any and all combinations of lists.

"Crucial" or just the way they do it? I don't happen to have the AFA, IAM, or whoever C&B/L's lying around. And just how many of the variable in those union's represented jobs are based on only DOH/LOS compared to pilots?

Either way, it doesn't answer the question but only says what other unions do. So again, what does DOH/LOS entitle a pilot to have other than position on that pilot's seniority list relative to his/her peers on that list?

Jim

 

[aquagreen73s]

East pilot - MONDA - (doh: 7/18/1988) 19 yrs 2 mo years of service - continuous service and has never been furloughed,

placed junior to West pilot - BOYD - (doh: 4/4/2005) 5 months of service (still on probation).

These lengths of service based on merger date of Sept 2005.

Monda is 3 numbers junior to Boyd on the Nic list dated Jan 2007



Which supplies the clearest argument possible against the lunacy of "relative seniority".....

I ask you honestly; Where/When in human nature and all of recorded history would any such societal insanity go uncontested?

"19 yrs 2 mo years of service - continuous service and has never been furloughed, placed junior to West pilot - BOYD"..."5 months of service (still on probation)."
Puhleeeaze people.......Can ANY of you honestly say that you truly feel five months of ANY one individual's working life should be/"is"... "nearly" or at ALL 'equivalent" to 19 years of another's contributions? What did he do during those five months on probation?...Cure cancer?...Perhaps end human hunger? (umm...clearly not that)..Or at least establish world peace?

East, my friend, I don't know how to say this without yelling, so here goes: "YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO MAKE THAT ARGUMENT AT THE ARBITRATION!" That argument is not DOH. Against the advice of your counsel, your side insisted on going with the all-or-nothing DOH argument. Your side needed to look at the realities of your circumstances and formulate the best argument from there. Any competent litigation has to start with an honest, self-assessment of your strengths and weaknesses. Starting from the position of having one third of your pilots on the street, some with 15 LOS, is not a good one. But what you do is take that fact for what it is, formulate an argument that includes other facts particular to your situation that a neutral party will find compelling, and go with it. What you (plural) did was the exact opposite. You (pl.) started with the most desirable result possible, and made that your argument; nothing was ever done to bridge the reality of your circumstances with the result sought. Friend, there's a reason there are no suspension bridges across the Grand Canyon. You (pl) weren't going to get to the other side with DOH. The arbitrator flat out told you twice that you weren't going to get there. Here we are nearly three years later and it should be apparent to all that DOH will never happen. Nobody is going to go anywhere until that realization crystallizes in the minds of a majority of East pilots. One thing I can say (and this isn't FUD) is that a couple of East pilots I've had on the JS lately have flat out said the 9th will be it for them. I'm also hearing similar anecdotes from other West pilots. This will soon be over. Time is wasting and it's up to every US Airways pilot, East and West, to do their part in moving this joint contract forward. Being a nonmember is inexcusable.

 

[Black Swan]

Black Swan, is Bagdad Bob your hero?

No, I know Monda. And if what you think you guys have planned for him is going to happen, I say I battle all of you to the end to make sure it doesn't happen. Try and justify how you think this is fair, and I will tell you every time this is why ALPA got tossed.

 

[Black Swan]

Nah, this is just my version of watching Jerry Springer--

I hate to see it happen to anyone- like what is going on here. Wait till Delta starts parking those NWA Diesel Nines. All you need is oil to creep up some more, and they will put them on the block. Then you get your own Springer Show. Everything is sitting just fine with your merger. I say no way those 9's last 16 months more. I hate to see them go, but there is no way Delta is going to keep them. They got rid of them when they owned them before. Lets' hope oil stays where it is or lower, then you will get by a little longer.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

USAirways can't afford an industry standard contract right now (and won't be able to until this economy turns around), and I can't imagine anyone--east or west-- wanting to agree to one that pays much less than industry standard. Your next contract may result from an 1113 hearing, or at least the threat of one...

IT must be hard being at DELTA with all that resposibility and class envy,I just don't see how you do it! Bottom line INDUSTRY PILOT , INDUSTRY STANDARD Your position although you fancy yourself above WEST and EAST think your compensated because you somehow STEERED your management into that position, Sorry our UNION challenged your SLOT transaction, remember LEE M. said the airline industry would be better off if USAIR was to liquidate and YOU WONDER! MM! PS How does AIRTRAN do it, little camel nose undere the tent!

 

[EastUS]

"Crucial" or just the way they do it? I don't happen to have the AFA, IAM, or whoever C&B/L's lying around. And just how many of the variable in those union's represented jobs are based on only DOH/LOS compared to pilots?

Either way, it doesn't answer the question but only says what other unions do. So again, what does DOH/LOS entitle a pilot to have other than position on that pilot's seniority list relative to his/her peers on that list?

Jim

I believe our differences are well established, and there's no point served by mutual assault or squabbling, but, perhaps you could explain your thoughts on the following: How is a person with 5 months, and still on probationary status, truly any variety of a "peer" with a person with 19 years flown on the line? Is it indeed your honest opinion that such "little" differences are of no account whatsoever? if so..well...seriously, and without any offence intended...I honestly have difficulties understanding such thought processes.
How does that really make any sense to you?...or anyone for that matter? It isn't as if either one of us was raised during a time period of completely "relative" values, nor presumably taught to disregard and completely disrespect the service and experience of others.

 

[cleardirect]

IT must be hard being at DELTA with all that resposibility and class envy,I just don't see how you do it! Bottom line INDUSTRY PILOT , INDUSTRY STANDARD Your position although you fancy yourself above WEST and EAST think your compensated because you somehow STEERED your management into that position, Sorry our UNION challenged your SLOT transaction, remember LEE M. said the airline industry would be better off if USAIR was to liquidate and YOU WONDER! MM! PS How does AIRTRAN do it, little camel nose undere the tent!

Trying to sort out the debris of your post.

Answer this. What is the industry standard seat/position of a 20 year pilot? Are the east pilots anywhere near that standard?

What do DAL pilot have to be envious of east pilots?

As far as usapa opposing the slot swap, all I can say is “real men of genius”. If these guys had a clue what they were doing they may be effective but now they are just dangerous. That opposition ALLOWED air tran the nose under the tent.