US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/19- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[trunion]

Too bad that scenario is nothing but a fantasy.

I guess that's what you have to do to believe your own lies.

And please don't talk to me about selfishness. You guys out east epitomize the word. You wanted DOH with no fences so that you could capture upgrades on both sides.

Save it for someone who cares - actually no one does.

................ It's not a fantasy - see post #161 .............


.

 

[aquagreen73s]

In response to post #130 - Ames

Here's your example:


East pilot - MONDA - (doh: 7/18/1988) 19 yrs 2 mo years of service - continuous service and has never been furloughed,

placed junior to West pilot - BOYD - (doh: 4/4/2005) 5 months of service (still on probation).

These lengths of service based on merger date of Sept 2005.

Monda is 3 numbers junior to Boyd on the Nic list dated Jan 2007.

But they were both nearly equivalent in relative seniority.

The only problem here is that too many on the East fail to grasp what really is an obvious characteristic of the arbitration system. What should have happened in this arbitration - what is expected to happen in any type of litigation for that matter - is that each party will evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of their positions, and then go with a plan to emphasize the strengths and minimize the weaknesses. You didn't do that. You had an attorney who told you what needed to be done, but you ignored it. Guess what? Things didn't turn out according to your unrealistic expectations, and there's not one entity outside of your group who feels sorry for you. You did this to yourself. Had you played your cards right, you possibly could have gotten some credit for the longevity of the furloughees, but YOU are the ones who made DOH an all or nothing proposition. There was no way two lists were going to be merged DOH when one list had more than a third of their pilots on furlough. That was completely unrealistic and has NEVER happened in any merger. You can appeal all you want, you can take your case to the supreme court of Heaveans Gate, but there isn't anyone out there who will see your POV now. Binding is binding and all of the could've-should've-would'ves won't change the fact that you did this to yourselves.

The silver lining is that those who pushed the East MC to take their completely unrealistic and outright asinine position are the ones who now complain about the arbitration result; the guilty ones did it to themselves. The captains are still in the left seat over there and will stay in those seats once a joint contract is signed.

 

[EastUS]

East pilot - MONDA - (doh: 7/18/1988) 19 yrs 2 mo years of service - continuous service and has never been furloughed,

placed junior to West pilot - BOYD - (doh: 4/4/2005) 5 months of service (still on probation).

These lengths of service based on merger date of Sept 2005.

Monda is 3 numbers junior to Boyd on the Nic list dated Jan 2007

But they were both nearly equivalent in relative seniority.

Which supplies the clearest argument possible against the lunacy of "relative seniority".....

I ask you honestly; Where/When in human nature and all of recorded history would any such societal insanity go uncontested?

"19 yrs 2 mo years of service - continuous service and has never been furloughed, placed junior to West pilot - BOYD"..."5 months of service (still on probation)."
Puhleeeaze people.......Can ANY of you honestly say that you truly feel five months of ANY one individual's working life should be/"is"... "nearly" or at ALL 'equivalent" to 19 years of another's contributions? What did he do during those five months on probation?...Cure cancer?...Perhaps end human hunger? (umm...clearly not that)..Or at least establish world peace?

 

[TheBadCat1313]

In response to post #130 - Ames

Here's your example:


East pilot - MONDA - (doh: 7/18/1988) 19 yrs 2 mo years of service - continuous service and has never been furloughed,

placed junior to West pilot - BOYD - (doh: 4/4/2005) 5 months of service (still on probation).

These lengths of service based on merger date of Sept 2005.

Monda is 3 numbers junior to Boyd on the Nic list dated Jan 2007.

Yep, Mr Boyd, 42 years old, 1996 TWA hire who started over at AWA. Not exactly inexperienced. Furloughed now for a year and a half from US while Mr Monda has hundreds currently working junior to him. Monda and Boyd were both the most junior pilots on the least desireable equipment when Boyd's company saved Monda's company from certain liquidation. Yeah, that's fair.

 

[traderjake]

EastUS

.....Can ANY of you honestly say that you truly feel five months of ANY one individual's working life should be/"is"... "nearly" or at ALL 'equivalent" to 19 years of another's contributions? What did he do during those five months on probation?...Cure cancer?...Perhaps end human hunger? (umm...clearly not that)..Or at least establish world peace?





The last three seniority arbitrations and a Federal judge say you're wrong.

You should stick to posting goofy smiley faces, they make more sense than your arguments.

 

[EastUS]

The last three seniority arbitrations and a Federal judge say you're wrong.

You should stick to posting goofy smiley faces, they make more sense than your arguments.

1) I couldn't care less if even The Great and Powerful Oz himself says the nic's "right"...It isn't....Period. I'm far more concerned with what's behind the curtain. One has principles or doesn't. If you have even any slight semblance of an actual argument to offer in support of whatever your supposed beliefs are..well....I'm all ears. I'm sure we could all benefit from better, or even slightly, understanding your actual thinking and viewpoint, versus the twisted, cryptic one-liners.

2) No matter I suppose. I'm pleased the goofy pictures work for you. Actual reading and thought do strain some excessively, so it's the least I can do.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Auqua, for argument sake MONDA, has spent a RELATIVELY LONGER time at US than BOYD ! The key term you used which is correct is :until a joint CONTRACT is SIGNED! Turn the clock ahead 20 years( I luv G, NIC) and did it to you , your outrage would be inconsolable! Those on the EAST WILL never sign a JOINT CONTRACT with the NIC attached, OUR PLAN, is run aground and addington , WILL GET TOSSED! MM! ps longevity is relative too! After all I am junior to you because WHEN I WAS HIRED no shortage of that remember AMERICAN TRANS AIR!

 

[Piedmont1984]

BoeingBoy

To answer your question, DOH and LOS means little within ALPA. Most other unions accept that those metrics are crucial in determining one's seniority, on any and all combinations of lists.

 

[boeingplt]

In response to post #130 - Ames

Here's your example:


East pilot - MONDA - (doh: 7/18/1988) 19 yrs 2 mo years of service - continuous service and has never been furloughed,

placed junior to West pilot - BOYD - (doh: 4/4/2005) 5 months of service (still on probation).

These lengths of service based on merger date of Sept 2005.

Monda is 3 numbers junior to Boyd on the Nic list dated Jan 2007.

While Monda, or Colello for that matter, were doing their 19 years on the AAA Seniority List the pilots senior to them aged 19 years and were 19 years closer to retirement. What Nic did was give Boyd 19 years of attrition in exchange for his 5 months in line and Colello got 5 months of attrition for his 19 years in line. Yeah, you're right, lets just accept it and move on.

 

[EastUS]

Yep, Mr Boyd, 42 years old, 1996 TWA hire who started over at AWA. Not exactly inexperienced.

"Not exactly inexperienced" should "reasonably" place him as captain above someone with over 19 years on the line....umm...WHY? Spare me whatever your notions of "fair" are for the moment..and kindly just explain any supposed, foundational "logic" one could EVER use to come up with that idea?

 

[Ames]

How many CEO's in the airline industry have received multiple DUI's and spent time in a women's prison? How much has this cost the USAirways employees in financial backing?

Doug Parker, America West CEO, is all you brought to the merger. Many poor choices from an "adult" that has cost USAirways employees. Your Saint is a stain in this industry.

Parker's personal situation has cost the airline nothing. You're grabbing at straws.

 

[Ames]

Thank you for providing links to your opinion on "Mr" Parkers ability to raise financing.

I have brought up Wiki in the past, that provides facts, one out of ten times you provided your "expert" opinion. Opinions sting, the truth hurts, facts provided thrust an epee into the opinionated fool.

See, herein lies the rub. One guy makes a statement of fact and you claim it's only his opinion. Then you go on to claim Wiki, which anyone can alter, as providing facts. Yet you want people to take you seriously.

 

[goneflyin]

Sorry. I did miss your earlier noting of your time worked. As for "predictability"? Your noted years fully fits my earlier assertions that the vast majority of those that espouse DOH as being "meaningless", or "irrelevant"...do indeed have their "personal reasons" for doing so....for which; I thank you for your predictability in that regard.

"I'm sure you're trying to make a point; I just can't for the life of me figure out what it might be." Is the concept that the vast majority of those, like yourself, that refuse to respect any people with more service, generally have their own selfish motives at heart so truly elusive to you? I've seen one retired poster whom, I nowadays truly believe has full and honest convictions that relative seniority's both fair and reasonable. Despite his/my huge differences; I must respect anyone's refusal to stray from their honest principles, however....he's the ONLY one who I've seen take that position that wouldn't potentially suffer from respecting the service and years worked of others.

Although your reply rambles a bit, as far as I can tell, the point you're trying to make is that my 23 years at Delta (14 of them in the left seat) makes me a rookie, with an opinion unworthy of consideration. If that's what you're inferring, so be it. Your opinion of me, or my career, means nothing to me. Years of service doesn't guarantee wisdom, just like it doesn't guarantee seniority. There's ample proof of that on these boards.

I've been through three seniority integrations (Western, Pan Am, and Northwest), so you'll see that my opinion has significant basis. All of those integrations were done by relative seniority within class. Not all were kind to me. One was especially painful, at least for a number of years. The philosophy behind this method of integration makes complete sense to me, whether I 'm harmed by it or not. Regardless of how I liked the result, I lived with it, because it was fair and was what we had agreed to. No lawsuit, no bellyaching, no welshing on a deal.

23 years? = if you were an east pilot: Using the nic fiasco would place you as a copilot to the bulk of the west list......Not any worry for myself, but I can but wonder what tone we'd hear from you in that scenario.....? Care to fill us in?

I normally wouldn't say this, but since I hate to leave a question unanswered... I have two friends who did go to work for USAir in 1987. They both walked out of new-hire training, saying that they had serious doubts about the airline. One got hired by Delta, and the other returned to a corporate flying job. I expect that I would have done the same, if I were in their shoes. If I, against all reason, had stayed there, I would deserve my fate. I say this with all apologies for those who were trapped there, at the bottom of a seniority list for all those years--I'm sure you had your reasons.

 

[Ames]

In response to post #130 - Ames

Here's your example:


East pilot - MONDA - (doh: 7/18/1988) 19 yrs 2 mo years of service - continuous service and has never been furloughed,

placed junior to West pilot - BOYD - (doh: 4/4/2005) 5 months of service (still on probation).

These lengths of service based on merger date of Sept 2005.

Monda is 3 numbers junior to Boyd on the Nic list dated Jan 2007.

If indeed he wasn't a furloughed guy, flying commuters for MDA yet claiming it was mainline then I thank you.

 

[Ames]

Those on the EAST WILL never sign a JOINT CONTRACT with the NIC attached, OUR PLAN, is run aground and addington , WILL GET TOSSED! MM! ps longevity is relative too!

I guess if you say it enough times it will become true.... Not!

What will those of you who claim you will NEVER vote a contract with Nic attached do if the final appeal is reached and it does not go your way? Are you really willing to operate under your current LOA93 into infinity? I doubt the majority of you think that way.

Regarding your comment on longevity, I agree. Problem is the west Merger Committee addressed it and the east Merger Committee dismissed it in favor of DOH. They dismissed all negotiation in favor of DOH. Mr. Nicolau attempted to move them from that position in an attempt at fairness but the east would have none of it. Read the transcripts. Not the east's Reader's Digest version, the actual transcripts.