US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/1- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[ROACLT]

Great career path. Start at what you consider the top and retire at the absolute bottom of the industry. Nice downward spiral.

Did that take planning or just lucky?

No just scab airlines and others who couldn't or wouldn't hold the line on pay, work rules and scope. That is what unionism gets you now a days, those who didn't contribute and were part of the problem, those who took jobs at the airline of last resort and envied others want to sweep in and enjoy the benefits of the sacrifices that they forced on others.

 

[Metroyet]

You're barking up the wrong tree, Bucko.

My pay rate has been, and still is, far ahead of any west pilot. Except for about 6 months, I have been a block holder my entire 30+ years, and have never missed a significant family event.

I admit that my particular career has been charmed compared to most, but since you fired your shot at me, I had to respond.

Every west pilot has had a career that has paled compared to mine in every aspect. Except for the last five years, AWA has been the gutter group of the airline industry. I would be hesitant to throw stones at any east career so far. Overall, we have been well ahead of the west.

Right. AAA has only had a "5" year bad run. I'd say in the last 30 years, there have been 5 that didn't include looming disaster, BK, tragedy, merger, base closures, more mergers, failed mergers, more base closure, Bk, BK again, and now Litigation, litigation, litigation.

Sorry Capt. Glory days but you've been clinging to the side of a swirling toilet bowl for a very long time...and they say cats have 9 lives? More like AAA pilots and their parasitic employer.

 

[nic4us]

Every west pilot has had a career that has paled compared to mine in every aspect.

Really? Did you ever have to live in PHL or PIT? That would be a career aspect sacrifice I would never have made. Now CLT I could learn to love, but PHL, ick.

Also, ever get to fly for the USAF Thunderbirds? Maybe the Blue Angels, (tail hooks are pretty cool)?

 

[cleardirect]

No just scab airlines and others who couldn't or wouldn't hold the line on pay, work rules and scope. That is what unionism gets you now a days, those who didn't contribute and were part of the problem, those who took jobs at the airline of last resort and envied others want to sweep in and enjoy the benefits of the sacrifices that they forced on others.

Always someone else's fault isn't it. Never the guy that is responsible for your career, you. Who do you blame for the east pilots caving twice during BK and dragging that industry down. Why did you guy not hold that line for the rest of us and do the honorable thing and sacrifice yourself at he alter of aviation gods. When you got to where you where 5 years ago before the merger, kill the beast and help the industry. Why continue to be an anchor? I think that US Air contributed plenty to the problem, more than most as a matter of fact.

DAL seems to be OK in this environment, AA seems to be alright. Could it be the big regional from the east that lived on overcharging businesses until that ran out that is having a problem with competition?

Because that is what you just discribed, competition.

BTW I have never envied an east pilot, ever. Pity maybe but never envy. Some would consider an airline that had 10 employees that only collected a check for 5 to be the last resort airline.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I make a point to ask every F/O I fly with (those who are NOT at the "top of the mountain") and every one has indicated that, given the choice, they want the looming attrition more than a raise.

Ah....those wo serve the master while ignoring the masses. I think it was Hate that said something about the MDA suit costing only $3000 each. For those struggling along at the bottom that's 6 month's pay...gross pay. Yup, life's just peachy for everyone going back and forth to Europe...
Jim

 

[ROACLT]

Always someone else's fault isn't it. Never the guy that is responsible for your career, you. Who do you blame for the east pilots caving twice during BK and dragging that industry down. Why did you guy not hold that line for the rest of us and do the honorable thing and sacrifice yourself at he alter of aviation gods. When you got to where you where 5 years ago before the merger, kill the beast and help the industry. Why continue to be an anchor? I think that US Air contributed plenty to the problem, more than most as a matter of fact.

DAL seems to be OK in this environment, AA seems to be alright. Could it be the big regional from the east that lived on overcharging businesses until that ran out that is having a problem with competition?

Because that is what you just discribed, competition.

BTW I have never envied an east pilot, ever. Pity maybe but never envy. Some would consider an airline that had 10 employees that only collected a check for 5 to be the last resort airline.

Since you advocate competition, why not get rid of the union all together and let the free market rule? Let the company decide all matters personnel wise based on experience, attitude, interviews, annual reviews, sick leave usage and the like? No, some just want semi unionism - partial protection and a lot of dog eat dog, when pure unionism is purely entitlement. Either get on board and quit trying to force a square peg in a round hole or watch the whole world go by as it continues to be dog eat dog in a union wrapper.

 

[Metroyet]

Since you advocate competition, why not get rid of the union all together and let the free market rule? Let the company decide all matters personnel wise based on experience, attitude, interviews, annual reviews, sick leave usage and the like? No, some just want semi unionism - partial protection and a lot of dog eat dog, when pure unionism is purely entitlement. Either get on board and quit trying to force a square peg in a round hole or watch the whole world go by as it continues to be dog eat dog in a union wrapper.

That's a GREAT idea! I'm sick of watching Cleary embarrass himself and the pilot group he claims to represent. I'd kiss the ring of Doug Parker any day before I'd give King ???? Cleary the time of day.

 

[cleardirect]

Since you advocate competition, why not get rid of the union all together and let the free market rule? Let the company decide all matters personnel wise based on experience, attitude, interviews, annual reviews, sick leave usage and the like? No, some just want semi unionism - partial protection and a lot of dog eat dog, when pure unionism is purely entitlement. Either get on board and quit trying to force a square peg in a round hole or watch the whole world go by as it continues to be dog eat dog in a union wrapper.

So typical. Get cornered and then have to take the argument to the absurd.

Gun control.

People that think banning guns and outlawing them is good argue whenever the NRA opposes these rule. They go immediately to the absurd. Well then we should have no rules and everyone should have a rocket launcher in their house.

Government control.

Well if you don’t like this “little infringement on your libertyâ€￾ then we should have no government control and let anarchy rule.

Unions serve or did serve a purpose, but they are not the end all be all of labor now. We are seeing the death grip of unions and the effect they had on the auto industry. When unions were fighting for safety, pensions, work rules and the 40 hour work week they were good. Forcing an auto company to pay a union worker that was furloughed 10 year ago 80% of their pay just because, is not good for anyone.

I for one don’t have a problem with advancement by merit. How about you? I do my job well show up on time and rarely call in sick. A majority of the world operates that way. Do the job or find another one. Why hide behind a union and the collective entitlement?

 

[ROACLT]

So typical. Get cornered and then have to take the argument to the absurd.

Gun control.

People that think banning guns and outlawing them is good argue whenever the NRA opposes these rule. They go immediately to the absurd. Well then we should have no rules and everyone should have a rocket launcher in their house.

Government control.

Well if you don’t like this “little infringement on your libertyâ€￾ then we should have no government control and let anarchy rule.

Unions serve or did serve a purpose, but they are not the end all be all of labor now. We are seeing the death grip of unions and the effect they had on the auto industry. When unions were fighting for safety, pensions, work rules and the 40 hour work week they were good. Forcing an auto company to pay a union worker that was furloughed 10 year ago 80% of their pay just because, is not good for anyone.

I for one don’t have a problem with advancement by merit. How about you? I do my job well show up on time and rarely call in sick. A majority of the world operates that way. Do the job or find another one. Why hide behind a union and the collective entitlement?

Nothing absurd about the facts of your profession. The proof is in the pudding. The following link can be used to clearly see how pilot pay has deteriorated over time. http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/

As a previous poster put it;

Here is a book. It will be about a pilot's union formed at the very beginning of the profession which was formed to protect and defend the profession. As the airline business matured this union slowly but surely fell into the realm of protecting individual pilot groups at the expense of the profession. Many different events within the business precipitated the selfishness. A national seniority list was never instituted and the union was doomed to failure. This single act focused the pilots on themselves and they truly believed that one group deserved more than another group based on the success or failure of the company they worked for.

Fast forward to today. Even without considering this debacle of two pilot groups acting like children. Much to the delight of an incompetent management. Simply because of selfishness on both parties due to a merger policy by the "union". Pilots of all airlines making less than car salesmen. Mini jets being Captained for wages less than McDonald's managers make. Pilot groups hoping that other airlines fail so their airline becomes stronger.

Pilot not realizing what it is they do for a living. Thinking they are equal to other employee groups. Not understanding they subsidize low ticket prices and incompetent management. Pilots just happy they have a "job".

The degradation of the the profession could have been stopped had the original union acted like a union. Now, there is not a pilot group in this nation that acts like a union. Not one.

Hell, they don't even know what a scab is.

It's all about the individual now. Just like our society. Me, me, me.

It's sad that the International Longshoreman Association gets a better deal for what I do, than your pilot union gets for you with all your education and specialized training. I am not an advocate for unions but as a member, I expect it to behave like a union, otherwise it is trying to drive a nail in with a screwdriver.

Advancement by merit is exactly how it should be and is in the real world but if you are going to adopt a union and a "seniority" system, then it has to be who has been around the longest. If you are going to advance people by a seniority system, some of which are likely poorer employees ahead of another better one then "fairness" can only be "tenure."

 

[EastUS]

Ah....those wo serve the master while ignoring the masses. I think it was Hate that said something about the MDA suit costing only $3000 each. For those struggling along at the bottom that's 6 month's pay...gross pay. Yup, life's just peachy for everyone going back and forth to Europe...
Jim

"$3000 each. For those struggling along at the bottom that's 6 month's pay...gross pay."

Sheesh!...That is bad then! Thanks for informing us all of the facts once again. I feel extremely foolish now, as I honestly had no idea that our ocean hopping FO's and IRO's made only $6,000 a year!

 

[EastUS]

So typical. Get cornered and then have to take the argument to the absurd.

Gun control.

People that think banning guns and outlawing them is good argue whenever the NRA opposes these rule. They go immediately to the absurd. Well then we should have no rules and everyone should have a rocket launcher in their house.

Government control.

Well if you don’t like this “little infringement on your libertyâ€￾ then we should have no government control and let anarchy rule.

I for one don’t have a problem with advancement by merit.

Why hide behind a union and the collective entitlement?

1) You mean you don't have a rocket launcher at your house?....Heck, then it must just be my neighborhood....I thought everybody did.

2) There is NO SUCH THING as a "little" infringment on any citizen's Liberty. That this escapes you speaks volumes.

3) "I for one don’t have a problem with advancement by merit. " Ummm..perhaps you should consider gaining some slightly larger degree of concern there....just a suggestion.

4) "Why hide behind a union and the collective entitlement?" As in hiding behind alpa and the nic? :blink:

 

[EastUS]

Also, ever get to fly for the USAF Thunderbirds? Maybe the Blue Angels, (tail hooks are pretty cool)?

No. I never had the pleasure. Sure woulda' been good grins though. Ummm...Which were you with, the Blues or the T-Birds?

 

[boeingplt]

I'd kiss the ring of Doug Parker any day before I'd give King ???? Cleary the time of day.

Ah yes, Silverman syndrome. You must be very proud. Thankfully, the majority of US Airways Pilots are behind what Mike Cleary stands for.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Sorry Capt. Glory days but you've been clinging to the side of a swirling toilet bowl for a very long time...and they say cats have 9 lives? More like AAA pilots and their parasitic employer.

At least I HAD glory days in my career. And I have outearned every west pilot every year since your sad little company kicked up its first desert sand. And I still do.

But it beats being at the bottom of the toilet bowl looking up for the entire 27 year existence of the airline you work for with still no end in sight.

 

[cleardirect]

Ouch!

Looks like the company is not going to take the chance of someone saying they did not know about it. Out for distribution is a letter from the company explaining why the snap back is not going to happen.

If the union is not going to tell you the truth I guess the company will have to.

Man it is turning into a bad week for USAPA. An amateur press release that now needs damage spin control, followed by a 13 page slam at Cleary et al for lying to the membership.

Now all we need is for the ninth to rule and we have a hat trick.

Is that a recall that I smell?