US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/17- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cleardirect]

Ok, but given the tone (or lack of it) in this endless discussion, what happens if USAPA does put a TA to a vote which contains the NIC. I'm guessing it gets voted down (maybe not, but that seems to be the prevailing mood). So, to be in compliance with the court order, does USAPA just continue putting it up to a vote?

I've been following this for 5 years now, and I see not one inch of movement from either side. From an outsider who has no dog in the hunt...
1. Does the phrase binding arbitration mean anything anymore? Or, is it only binding if I agree with the arbitrated decision?
2. Before you on the West start cheering...do any of you understand that negotiation in good faith does NOT mean getting my way all the time on every issue? It means finding a middle of the road solution that everyone can live with.
3. With all the apparent legal experts in the pilot ranks at LCC...I mean with enough expertise to say that a Federal judge and/or Appeals court is incompetent unless they rule in my favor, why are you wasting your time flying airplanes? Ambulance chasing pays much better than any job in the airline business, with the exception of the executives. And, you get to stay home nights and sleep in your own bed.
4. Why not just call a wildcat strike and put an end to US Airways? You have all posted the same rather inane comments over and over and over for 5 years now. Some of you are going to end up with at least contempt of court charges for numerous reasons. Why not make it for something sexy, like a strike? (And, in the interest of full disclosure...I would be grateful for the job security. Reducing the Big 5 to the Big 4 might give me some hope that I will make it to retirement in less than two years without being furloughed again. Ok, maybe I do have a small dog in the hunt. )

Good points.
On number 2. we had an arbitration. That was the process of negotiating in good faith. That is complete. What the east wants is a second round after the answer was given. Let's say that we get a new contract. It is ratified and signed. Then the company comes back and says OK now that that is done let's talk about lowering those pays rates we need to compromise now. It is two bites at the apple it is getting our side to move to their position twice.

What can the east pilots give the west pilots in exchange for moving. Nothing! So what they are demanding is that the west just give them something for nothing after a good faith negotiation.

 

[cleardirect]

If USAPA wins, I would imagine they will proceed through mediation toward a new single agreement with DOH/Condition & Restrictions and it will be voted up or down.

If it were voted down, the reasons would be redressed in possible and at which point, it proceeded past a 30 day cooling off period, decisions or continuing negotiations, self help, or a combination would be reviewed and voted on. Of course predicting the future this way is just as nebulous at predicting how or why a new DFR would be successful if the 9th Circuit rules in USAPA's favor.

Personally, I think you guys East and West are beyond ever sharing flight decks together, no matter the possible outcomes.

What makes you think that usapa could negotiate a DOH list with the company? They can not do the easy things like pay rates, how would they get the company to move from an arbitrated and accepted list to one that would be unfair and cost the company money by restricting the way they can do business?

With fences they can not move flying where they want. With fences if they furlough from one side the can not back fill to those positions across the fence.

The company has no interest in a DOH list. How does usapa if they are allowed to negociate for one get it? They have not leverage.

If the east wins in the ninth but are unable to get a DOH list, how do they bring a contract to the pilots? What excuse can they use?

 

[jimntx]

But, that's just my point. Both sides have the attitude that like Sir Gawain in the Idylls of the King, "My strength is as the the strength of ten because my heart is pure." Your motives and your position are pure as the driven snow.

You can all prove to your own satisfaction that you have given the ultimate, and now it is time for the other side to give. Do any of you seriously think this attitude on both sides will have a good end?

As someone who tried it once, let me tell you that they don't care at Safeway or Wal-Mart that you stood on your principles until the bitter end. Their philosophy is "In God we trust. All others pay cash."

 

[cleardirect]

But, that's just my point. Both sides have the attitude that like Sir Gawain in the Idylls of the King, "My strength is as the the strength of ten because my heart is pure." Your motives and your position are pure as the driven snow.

You can all prove to your own satisfaction that you have given the ultimate, and now it is time for the other side to give. Do any of you seriously think this attitude on both sides will have a good end?

As someone who tried it once, let me tell you that they don't care at Safeway or Wal-Mart that you stood on your principles until the bitter end. Their philosophy is "In God we trust. All others pay cash."

OK. You be the arbitrator. What would you have the west give up?

What you have the east give up in order to move forward?

What compromise would you suggest?

 

[jimntx]

I don't presume to know. I'm one of the distinct minority of AA flight attendants who thinks that the former TW flight attendants did not get a fair deal from either my company or my union. But, my friends and I have decided to accept that what is, is; and move on with our friendships and our lives.

None of you come across as particularly grown-up. The attitude that "I want my marbles back. I wouldn't have put them in the game if I had thought you had a chance in heck of winning" does not denote maturity and good judgment.

From the East, you "lost" a binding arbitration that you demanded. (Technically, you didn't lose. You just don't like the decision. Too bad.) AND, you lost a court case that you insisted on bringing. Do you ever reach the point where you take responsibility for your own actions? Actions have consequences. In this great democratic republic of ours, you have the right to do whatever you want up to and including buying a gun and killing someone with it. As long as you are willing to pay the price.

From the West, most of you are younger than the majority of East pilots. Would it just kill you to come to some agreement that is somewhere between the NIC and DOH? Then, go back to the judge and say, "Look, we have reached an agreement that is less than full NIC. Could you lift your injunction so that we can have a TA to vote on, and move on with our lives and careers?"

The end result of continuing your argument in this same vein ad nauseum will be the death of what used to be (and, could be again) a great airline. When you are working at Home Depot and trying to make ends meet on $10/hr, will you really get any comfort from the fact that you didn't budge an inch?

 

[Freebird]

As someone who tried it once, let me tell you that they don't care at Safeway or Wal-Mart that you stood on your principles until the bitter end. Their philosophy is "In God we trust. All others pay cash."

Thats exactly what Usapa is afraid of. They know, that the more senior East pilots will vote YES for a pay raise and a new contract. To move on. History will repeat it self in the East.

 

[Phoenix]

I don't presume to know....

Well said.

 

[Metroyet]

. Would it just kill you to come to some agreement that is somewhere between the NIC and DOH? Then, go back to the judge and say, "Look, we have reached an agreement that is less than full NIC. Could you lift your injunction so that we can have a TA to vote on, and move on with our lives and careers?"

That was possible under ALPA. When the East voted in USAPA...thinking they were brilliant strategists...they shot themselves in the foot, (what's new)? There is no "West" anymore. Bradford took care of that. There is only one now, indivisible, one side. The west has no one who would be duly authorized to even negotiate anything on behalf of the West seniority integration.

The Irony is ALPA was the life raft, and the East were too blinded with stupidity and rage to see that.

 

[cubfan]

That was possible under ALPA. When the East voted in USAPA...thinking they were brilliant strategists...they shot themselves in the foot, (what's new)? There is no "West" anymore. Bradford took care of that. There is only one now, indivisible, one side. The west has no one who would be duly authorized to even negotiate anything on behalf of the West seniority integration.

The Irony is ALPA was the life raft, and the East were too blinded with stupidity and rage to see that.

Have to wave the BS flag on that one Metro. Very easy to say that now since Alpa is gone. If some one from another airline ask's you this in the future, just tell the truth. "I don't think so". The west F/O's woke up one morning, read the arbitration award, and were overcome with JOY. There is no way they would have agreed to change one thing and you know it. Now back to the Olympics to watch 2 great hockey games, AYE.

 

[luvn737s]

Jimintx-

Your solution puts the west in the position of negotiating against itself everytime the TA gets voted down. The arbitration took the power of the majority to excercise tyranny away from them. Now you're proposing that it be given back to them.

No, this will only come to an end when enough east/west pilots get fed up enough to force out the USAPA leadership that thrives on disunity. Then a contract will be voted on that will determine how big an issue the Nic is. Everything else is a dozen blowhards on a internet message board.

Eleven plus me.

 

[Phoenix]

The Irony is ALPA was the life raft, and the East were too blinded with stupidity and rage to see that.

Seeing ALPA as a life raft.. that does take a certain amount of visual acuity and fear. Such a small and trembling view.

ALPA always did portray themselves as the only rational means of deliverance. After all of those decades of dues, too many of the castaways sitting in the lifeboats realized they didn't have to look up to the mother-ship for the scraps being tossed overboard (just a pittance of taxes paid to have the honor of being in the mother-ship's shadow, while caviar and chateau briand was served above on board in the state rooms).

What do you know.. we have all drifted to shore and the there is a big new land to explore. Shove off to sea and Farewell. Don't forget to write.

 

[luvn737s]

Cubfan-

If you had union leadership who had honestly told the pilots that they were going for relative seniority, then the east pilots would not have flown off the handle and ginned up this USAPA mess.

 

[luvn737s]

Phoenix-

I don't see one iota of difference between the alleged atrocities of ALAP and how USAPA conducts itself. It has only one airline to represent, why should it charge as much or more than a union which has to represent almost all the rest?

Ask your BPR to give you a copy of their 2010 budget and ask them how that budget is arrived at. That should answer the question.

 

[nycbusdriver]

This is a serious question.

How does a federal judge overstep his, or her, bounds?

By either intentionally or unintentionally violating federal law, or higher court precedents.

I thought you would know that.

Every time a federal judge is overturned, he/she has overstepped his/her bounds by definition.

 

[nycbusdriver]

People on this board telling us that it is usapa intention to never get a contract will also bring legal action from both sides by people that want to at least vote on a contract.

I've never seen anyone post here that is it USAPA's intention to never get a contract. What you are reading is that it is the east pilots' collective intention to never get a contract if it includes the Nicolau shame.

Do you see the difference? Two unions, one union. Different situation.

Do you see the difference? Official position of USAPA is quite in line with Wake's ruling. Position of the rank-and-file on the east side? Different situation.

Two years form now and no contract could be another DFR. Not representing the pilots that want a better contract in favor of the junior pilots that are stealing upgrades. The NMB would be the first witness called. Question is usapa negotiating on good faith? If the answer is, no they are delaying. Case closed.

Two years from now another DFR? Good luck with that if the NMB is still mediating. But go right ahead....roll out another $2 million for your attorneys. It's always a good show for us on the east.