US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[luvn737s]

"You'll never break the resolve of the east to care less" - a mashup of east attittude.

 

[Bear96]

Second using age as a factor is illegal. Whether it is giving advantage or discriminating because of someone’s age older or younger. So you see when you try and get seniority because you are older I will call the EEOC and scream discrimination because I was disadvantaged by my younger age. Better rethink your plan.

Re: the bolded part: Not so much.

You might want to do some research on age discrimination. The legislative history of, and case law regarding, the ADEA makes it clear that it was established to protect older workers from employment decisions that favor younger workers, and not the other way around, even if the relatively "older" and "younger" workers in a given situation are both over 40. In other words, even if you are over 40, if a decision favors someone older than you at your expense, you probably cannot make out an age discrimination claim. In this way the ADEA is different from other employment discrimination laws - i.e., under Title VII, a white employee is protected the same as a black employee (at least in theory; in practice, there are usually evidentiary and factual realities which make it especially difficult to prove reverse discrimination in most workplaces.)

Also, an employer does not violate the ADEA if it makes decisions based on following an established seniority system (or "bona fide seniority system," in ADEA-ese). This is so even if older workers are negaitvely impacted by a seniority-based decision, let alone if younger workers are negatively impacted.

 

[cubfan]

If you all decertify, you are playing into the company's hands, I guess you east pilots dont remember what the company did to the non-union employees in 92. You are fools if you think being an employee at will would be better than having a cba.

Well said, couldn't agree more. With this Lorenzo/Orenstien light mgt. group, with no union you will wake up one morning and say, "wtf, they can't do that" and some one else will say....they just did. Stop the silly talk.....it's not going to happen. :down:

 

[nycbusdriver]

So yes, Federal law provides protection against age discrimination, but is does not protect the east any more than it does the West,

I agree fully.

Why do you think that the company would choose to immediately abandon the seniority system? Do you really think (it might help to say it out loud) that the company would choose mass mayhem of allowing anyone to pick any seat in any base (or assign them)?

I don't think the company will "immediately" do any such thing. In fact, if the CBA does go away, I suspect that the company will publish the Nic as the "seniority" list. But exactly what obligation does the company have to honor it when the first "big decision" about fleets or bases comes up? None whatsoever. As employees at will, the company has no obligation at all to furlough according to the list. Wake can't enforce it because he himself admitted that Nicolau will only reside in a joint contract. Without a CBA there is no contract, joint or not.

No, there will be no immediate upheaval. The day after we become non-union will look exactly like the day before. But little by little, things will change (have you heard of the "boiled frog syndrome?") Look for it. Count on it.

One of the first things to happen, though, will be equal pay for equal work. What that rate is remains to be seen. But absent a CBA, Doug can no longer get away with the excuse of waiting for a joint contract. Absent a CBA, he will be obliged to equalize the pay and other compensation. Will he bring the east up to west rates? Or, will he average it out? Who is to stop him from following through on the old Hemenway threat of imposing LOA 93 on the west?

Look for an incremental reduction in all pay rates at the first sign of a fuel price spike. Oil goes up, the pilots will begin to pay the fuel bill with pay cuts. Oil goes down, the reductions in pay will remain in place. Lower the bar one notch at a time.

Time to reduce flying in a base? Furlough. But why take on the expense of retraining pilots? Simply furlough the captains and first officers affected by the reductions. You are seeing a form of this already with the closure of your LAS base. And you don't like it much. Absent a CBA, the company would have simply furloughed the LAS pilots, especially if there flying is not being transferred to PHX. End of story.

No. There will be no huge change in the immediate aftermath of the loss of a CBA. But a year later, you (east and west) won't recognize your job anymore.

NYC,

Isn't the Company on record in Federal Court accepting the Nicolau list as their list. If the union is removed and some other list were to be forwarded, certainly you see the exposure the Company would have from any number of directions, most immediately, YOURS right. But the Nicolau list being the last list generated by an accepted policy agreed to by all involved, would provide some insulation for the Company. Certainly you can see this.

Please recheck your facts. At this point the Nicolau list is the LCC Seniority list. It is not being used because of the TA. If you remove the TA and the Collective Bargining Agreement, where exactly does it say that the Nicolau list cannot be used. Would the Company use it? See the first paragraph.

Please recheck YOUR facts. Absent a contract, there really is no seniority list that the company has to follow. As I said above, Tempe will probably publish Nic as the "seniority list" to assuage the west and cover their butts, just in case. But even Wake said Nicolau will only take effect under a joint contract.

Given that (now follow along closely), if Nic is only effective with a joint contract, and absent a CBA there is no contract, on what basis do you think the company will have to honor it? It will be a piece of paper on the crew room wall that the company can ignore with compunction. And they will. Not immediately, mind you, but each time it makes more economic sense to ignore it thatn to honor it, they will.

 

[Metroyet]

Interesting little jab Cleary take at Ciabattoni:

While Dave’s assertions about the direction of the union and my leadership are unfortunate (and, it goes without saying, incorrect)

More cheap entertainment from the uniformed chunk head.


If something really "goes without saying" then one doesn't need to publish anything "saying" anything. He just acknowledges guilt by attempting to NOT answer to it.

Of course those rationally thinking West Coasters have been telling the East what Ciabottoni just did for over a year now but...you know. What do the lesser experienced whipper snapper 40+ year olds know about character.

 

[Flippin43]

I agree fully.



I don't think the company will "immediately" do any such thing. In fact, if the CBA does go away, I suspect that the company will publish the Nic as the "seniority" list. But exactly what obligation does the company have to honor it when the first "big decision" about fleets or bases comes up? None whatsoever. As employees at will, the company has no obligation at all to furlough according to the list. Wake can't enforce it because he himself admitted that Nicolau will only reside in a joint contract. Without a CBA there is no contract, joint or not.

No, there will be no immediate upheaval. The day after we become non-union will look exactly like the day before. But little by little, things will change (have you heard of the "boiled frog syndrome?") Look for it. Count on it.

One of the first things to happen, though, will be equal pay for equal work. What that rate is remains to be seen. But absent a CBA, Doug can no longer get away with the excuse of waiting for a joint contract. Absent a CBA, he will be obliged to equalize the pay and other compensation. Will he bring the east up to west rates? Or, will he average it out? Who is to stop him from following through on the old Hemenway threat of imposing LOA 93 on the west?

Look for an incremental reduction in all pay rates at the first sign of a fuel price spike. Oil goes up, the pilots will begin to pay the fuel bill with pay cuts. Oil goes down, the reductions in pay will remain in place. Lower the bar one notch at a time.

Time to reduce flying in a base? Furlough. But why take on the expense of retraining pilots? Simply furlough the captains and first officers affected by the reductions. You are seeing a form of this already with the closure of your LAS base. And you don't like it much. Absent a CBA, the company would have simply furloughed the LAS pilots, especially if there flying is not being transferred to PHX. End of story.

No. There will be no huge change in the immediate aftermath of the loss of a CBA. But a year later, you (east and west) won't recognize your job anymore.



Please recheck YOUR facts. Absent a contract, there really is no seniority list that the company has to follow. As I said above, Tempe will probably publish Nic as the "seniority list" to assuage the west and cover their butts, just in case. But even Wake said Nicolau will only take effect under a joint contract.

This is true as long as a CBA exists !!! If you have proof of it being true without one. Could you share it with us.

Given that (now follow along closely), if Nic is only effective with a joint contract, and absent a CBA there is no contract, on what basis do you think the company will have to honor it? It will be a piece of paper on the crew room wall that the company can ignore with compunction. And they will. Not immediately, mind you, but each time it makes more economic sense to ignore it thatn to honor it, they will.

NYC,

Your not consistant here. You have spent alot of time explaining that the company can do what they want without a union. Why then do you believe they will not use the seniority list (Nicolau) that insulates them from law suits from any number of directions that would occur if they did something different than Nicolau.

I find it extremely ironic that you should claim that without the union the Company could just furlough a base with no regard to seniority. Do you realize that if usapa is successful making seniority negotiable. That this is exactly what they are inviting the Company to do. The next time they want to reduce or close something, they will tell the union of their intentions and sure usapa will object but the Company will ask "what are you willing to give up, for us not to do it that way". When you intend to ask the Company to ignore an Arbitrated list and Negotiate a DOH list. Do you really think it will stop there.

 

[nycbusdriver]

NYC,

Your not consistant here. You have spent alot of time explaining that the company can do what they want without a union. Why then do you believe they will not use the seniority list (Nicolau) that insulates them from law suits from any number of directions that would occur if they did something different than Nicolau.

I find it extremely ironic that you should claim that without the union the Company could just furlough a base with no regard to seniority. Do you realize that if usapa is successful making seniority negotiable. That this is exactly what they are inviting the Company to do. The next time they want to reduce or close something, they will tell the union of their intentions and sure usapa will object but the Company will ask "what are you willing to give up, for us not to do it that way". When you intend to ask the Company to ignore an Arbitrated list and Negotiate a DOH list. Do you really think it will stop there.

No, it is you who is being inconsistent. You talk of "seniority negotiations" and "USAPA making seniority negotiable."

You need to understand that when the union goes away, there are no negotiations regarding anything, and anything previously negotiated is subject to unilateral change at the company's whim.

You and I will be "employees at will." Period. Any guarantees associated with the NIC go out the window with the union, as do our contracts.

Why not ask HP_FA to explain this to you?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I think the busdriver has it right about the nic list as at will employees. Even being in place, it would only be symbolic, as the company just did whatever they wished with bases, fleets, and pilots. Any other list would be the same though. At will employment wouldn't do anyone any good.

 

[boeingplt]

Do you realize that if usapa is successful making seniority negotiable.

Please explain to me which sections of the collective BARGAINING agreement aren't subject to bargaining.

 

[Freebird]

No, it is you who is being inconsistent. You talk of "seniority negotiations" and "USAPA making seniority negotiable."

You need to understand that when the union goes away, there are no negotiations regarding anything, and anything previously negotiated is subject to unilateral change at the company's whim.



Let me get this straight. If the CBA goes away, then Doug P can staple the East Pilots? And you are OK with that? I feel that he is less than impressed with USAPA's antics, and could very well "Reward" you...am I following your logic?


You and I will be "employees at will." Period. Any guarantees associated with the NIC go out the window with the union, as do our contracts.

See Above.

Why not ask HP_FA to explain this to you?

 

[nic4us]

Please explain to me which sections of the collective BARGAINING agreement aren't subject to bargaining.

All section of the bargaining agreement are subject to bargaining, however, if the agency bargains in bad faith or in a discriminatory manner, they can fail their duty of fair representation obligations.

This is what happened in our case. When seeking legal advice, Bradford had this explained to him, and decided to disregard it, good for the West we had a copy of that e-mail. When usapa was formed, J. Freund, further explained to Seeham, why this was illegal. Finally, when usapa came to PHX pre-election, I stood there and watched as this was explained to Bradford, Theur, Seeham and others, that obviously feel on deaf ears.

Bottom line, bargain away, just do not try an discriminate against those you have to represent.

See the flaw in the plan yet?

 

[cleardirect]

No, it is you who is being inconsistent. You talk of "seniority negotiations" and "USAPA making seniority negotiable."

You need to understand that when the union goes away, there are no negotiations regarding anything, and anything previously negotiated is subject to unilateral change at the company's whim.

Really! Please explain how Jetblue (no union) just negotiated a contract?

I think you guys need to understand what you are talking about. My suggestion is to go find a good labor lawyer, not Seham and ask a few questions before starting some big plan before thinking it out fully.

 

[Black Swan]

How about those pay rates?

How about those home values in PHX and LAS? Looks like both sides are screwed. Wait, LOA 93 expires in, lets' see, 3 days.........

 

[cleardirect]

How about those home values in PHX and LAS? Looks like both sides are screwed. Wait, LOA 93 expires in, lets' see, 3 days.........

What ya gonna do when they don't come to you? Be bad boys, bad boys?

What do you think the company is going to do? Pay or not pay?

 

[john john]

EEOC does NOT interfere with union seniority.

What the federal government not getting involve with union business