US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[luvn737s]

Likewise, when you said "The West guy who said the company was carrying more aircraft than allowed under the TA was flat wrong", I was merely pointing out that the company is carrying more planes that the minimum. Do you dispute that? Apparently so - "No, Jim. The company is carrying the exact number (or close to) the minimums in the TA."

I was probably that west guy and what I said was that the company had retained some of the airplanes it had planned to shed (737s) so dumping aircraft in the abscence of a TA is not necessarily a given. That they are still planning for the same number of A/C due to deferred deliveries is still a fact. If the a/c are a smoking deal and they can justify them in the short term, then they will probably keep them with or without a CBA/union.

I think they will regret that they didn't keep the E-190's. USAPA should realize how irrelevant they are that the company didn't even bother to play "Let's Make a Deal" where they could have allowed USAPA to have a win and demonstrate their ability to serve the pilots. Instead the company went right on by (as they should have) when dealing with a group that does not know how to negotiate to get what they want.

 

[luvn737s]

You are missing the point.

The methodology for integration, whether it be the Nicolau shame or DOH, is irrelevent if there is no union. There is no "seniority list" that legally means anything when there is no contract.

Why do you think that the company would choose to immediately abandon the seniority system? Do you really think (it might help to say it out loud) that the company would choose mass mayhem of allowing anyone to pick any seat in any base (or assign them)? The easiest thing would be to pick and choose what aspect of the TA it wants to invoke (like no bump and flush) and utilize the non-union status to get past the one roadblock it has previously had no power to get around unilaterally? And do it before another union (maybe ALPA) comes back to dredge up the war all over again? And wouldn't it use the Nic as a basis since if it was challenged by the EEOC (not bloody likely) it could produce the roadmap that got them to it as a defense?

I know everyone loves to be the chief mongerer of fear, but a non-union USAirways would look very much like the one of today (OK, more like a large America West in some respects) with perhaps a Pilot Advisory Board and a combined list which could have some delayed implementation to approximate a fence. PBS would be the bidding system and the sticking points of contract negotiations would probably be implemented unilaterally to the benefit of the company. But the sky would not fall.

Remember this is the airline that has a problem keeping the wheels on when a snowstorm hits. They aren't about to completely take full and immediate action to untie the entire airline at once in the hopes of squeezing every dime out of labor. They may even hold back a little to try and sell folks on the benefits of being non-union.

But the company doesn't acknowledge USAPA as a legitimate entity. They know how fractured it is, solely because of the seniority integration. Breaking the union would put them in full control (for a short time) and they have the luxury of cultivating a labor relation that embraces non-union or they can bring one back on them with a vengeance.

I would not take the scare tactics of those who depend on USAPA for their power and validation seriously.

 

[End of USAPA]

Looney Wagon....or a carefully orchestrated strategy that so far has been a resounding success? Think about it. The East so far has got their DOH list and enjoys all the benefits of the merger without any of the downside. They've kept their airline and jobs alive for another 4+ years. They still have the Bid Sheet, they're going to HNL and ANC, the Nic. so far is only a piece of paper, a CBA and combined ops. years away, with attrition soon to kick in.

I bet you'll find few if any east pilots willing to climb off that wagon. They know exactly what they're doing.

DING DING DING DING We have a winner!

Are you westies getting it yet??? Almost five years and counting. WE're getting our attrition one day at a time. Go ahead and bk USAPA. We can care less at this point. As I expect, the end of usapa is near. What lies ahead? THE ABYSS.

Happy holidays!!!

 

[Tiger 1050]

DING DING DING DING We have a winner!

Are you westies getting it yet??? Almost five years and counting. WE're getting our attrition one day at a time. Go ahead and bk USAPA. We can care less at this point. As I expect, the end of usapa is near. What lies ahead? THE ABYSS.

Happy holidays!!!

"Getting our attrition?" Really?! I thought the age 65 thing kicked in for you guys around 2012...

 

[HPDriver]

"Getting our attrition?" Really?! I thought the age 65 thing kicked in for you guys around 2012...

Talking EEOC stuff just proves that this is over.

That's about as desperate as you can get.

Good luck with that one.

 

[HPDriver]

DING DING DING DING We have a winner!

Are you westies getting it yet??? Almost five years and counting. WE're getting our attrition one day at a time. Go ahead and bk USAPA. We can care less at this point. As I expect, the end of usapa is near. What lies ahead? THE ABYSS.

Happy holidays!!!

DING DING DING DING We have LOA 93 in perpetuity!

 

[HPDriver]

Interesting little jab Cleary take at Ciabattoni:

While Dave’s assertions about the direction of the union and my leadership are unfortunate (and, it goes without saying, incorrect)

 

[ClueByFour]

Why do I get the feeling that the full ramifications of losing the CBA is maybe, just maybe, beginning to sink in? Talk about a Pyrrhic victory.

It's the identical pyrrhic victory that the Angry FOs achieved with USAPA. The difference is that someone is going to at least pay the West legal bills, whereas the other monies that USAPA has pissed away will never be recovered.

West=no Nic without a joint contract. Legal bills paid for. NIC enshrined in place by a federal court.

East=no Nic without a joint contract. Paying all kinds of legal bills, LOA 93 in perpetuity, etc.

The Nic avoidance maneuver was possible under ALPA, simply by refusal to ratify a joint contract.

 

[HPDriver]

It's the identical pyrrhic victory that the Angry FOs achieved with USAPA. The difference is that someone is going to at least pay the West legal bills, whereas the other monies that USAPA has pissed away will never be recovered.

West=no Nic without a joint contract. Legal bills paid for. NIC enshrined in place by a federal court.

East=no Nic without a joint contract. Paying all kinds of legal bills, LOA 93 in perpetuity, etc.

The Nic avoidance maneuver was possible under ALPA, simply by refusal to ratify a joint contract.

They've managed to screw themselves once again.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

End of ALPA

Wow, that is quite a little scheme you have worked out.

A couple small problems. Since the east pilots forced single carrier status on us any corporation that the east forms to advance east pilots would be considered discriminatory. The courts and this administration hate discrimination.

Second using age as a factor is illegal. Whether it is giving advantage or discriminating because of someone’s age older or younger. So you see when you try and get seniority because you are older I will call the EEOC and scream discrimination because I was disadvantaged by my younger age. Better rethink your plan.

The EEOC? Really? Seriously? I've been dealing with and been working with the EEOC for over 20 years, both pro and against. I have personally responded to dozens of EEOC claims in the last few years, and won them all, and they all had more gravitas than your bleating. No way in hell would they touch this. Are you high? My local EEOC gets 300 claims a week, nearly all are as silly as any one of yours will be. EEOC does NOT interfere with union seniority. I haven't laughed so hard in a while.

You easties are grasping at every straw out there. Its hilarious. Go ahead, decertify (I am ardently anti-union), and see what happens, that way Nicolau will be law forever and you all will have wasted all your dues on nothing. Not that it matters, 9th Circus will throw your asses to the curb before that.

Binding...just repeat that word. It means that you agree to something...and man up and live by your agreements.

Oh, the drama!

 

[HPearlyretiree]

What are you talking about? Discrimination against OLDER workers, without some rational basis, is ILLEGAL! You better get your facts straight.

I have an EEOC claim against the company for discrimination BECAUSE of my age/correlative years of service in relation to you (but only when the company decides to join the lists...not before, which is called NOT RIPE because we still HAVE a union!).

Why don't you go to the EEOC website and read for yourself. What rational basis, with employment at will, do YOU have a greater right and lessor years of service than mine? That is WHY we have the EEOC...just like they asked in court. When will a claim for discrimination of women over men become ripe? When the CBA is RATIFIED! NOT BEFORE! Age discrimination/longevity/tenure has always been correlative to OLDER workers...not YOUNGER! Read the act: applies to those whose age is 40 years OR MORE!!!

Deserve something because of my AGE??? What have you been smoking...THE COMPANY has to prove their reason to discriminate YOUR years of service over mine. The burden of proof rests with THEM! Go to the EEOC website and EDUCATE yourself about age discrimination.

Age Discrimination & Employment Policies/Practices
An employment policy or practice that applies to everyone, regardless of age, can be illegal if it has a negative impact on applicants or employees age 40 or older and is not based on a reasonable factor other than age.

We don't have ANY award unless and until a CBA IS RATIFIED. Until then, ANY process in the negotiating pipeline is not completed until ALL processes are completed. Even Judge Wakr AFFIRMED...repeat....AFFIRMED that premise!!!

I'll tell you what. Why don't you go to the USAPA website and red the companies position letter to the NMB in answer to Cleary's letter. This sum's it up very well. USAPA "reopened" many of the other sections that were tentativly agreed to before and are renegotiating them as well. Does that allow AOL to sue for THOSE sections TOO? Think about it.

Again, what we have now is NOT a union, we have an ONION and the only way from this point forward is to chop up (which is what WEST pilots WANT) and dissolve the union and go to employment at will. Let's let the company support those who will compete the most for the least. JUST THE WAY WEST PILOTS WANT IT...with an ANTI-UNION corporation and law firm.

Guys, it's time to give the West pilots what they want.

See you ALL on the line!

Oh my god are you naive. Do you know anything about the EEOC? You will go in, explain your complaint, they will fill out paperwork, it goes to the company who will explain your union contracts, the impasse, the decision by Wake (and the upcoming 9th Circus that will spank you) and, the EEOC after seeing that your case is nothing special (very few EEOC complaints ever get anywhere), they will issue you a "Right to Sue" letter. That letter and 2 bucks will get you a coffee at Starbucks. No lawyer will even look at you situation. But go ahead and try it, I've had many employees get the same letter (I even got the same letter on a complaint). No, the EEOC will not help you, they will listen to you, shake your hand, and forget you. Please, keep me updated, I need the laughs!

(FWIW, I have been in HR for over 20 years, and have seen more EEOC claims than you can count. I am a board member of a group that meets with and hosts the EEOC at conferences, I know many EEOC members at all levels. The EEOC goes after cases they can win, like a noose hung over a black employee's locker, or like pornography shown at work in a meeting, or for a manager "pleasuring" himself at his desk in an office full of women...those are the cases that PHX EEOC has won in the last few months....)

But, please, knock yourself out!

 

[Flippin43]

You are missing the point.

The methodology for integration, whether it be the Nicolau shame or DOH, is irrelevent if there is no union. There is no "seniority list" that legally means anything when there is no contract.

However, whether there is a union or not, federal law still provides for protection from age discrimination.

I find it amazing that folks are believing that somehow Nicolau will survive the loss of the CBA. With out a CBA, there is no Nicolau simply because there is no contract.

NYC,

Isn't the Company on record in Federal Court accepting the Nicolau list as their list. If the union is removed and some other list were to be forwarded, certainly you see the exposure the Company would have from any number of directions, most immediately, YOURS right. But the Nicolau list being the last list generated by an accepted policy agreed to by all involved, would provide some insulation for the Company. Certainly you can see this.

Please recheck your facts. At this point the Nicolau list is the LCC Seniority list. It is not being used because of the TA. If you remove the TA and the Collective Bargining Agreement, where exactly does it say that the Nicolau list cannot be used. Would the Company use it? See the first paragraph.

The EEOC protections.

I'm guessing that you believe you will find DOH or DOB type seniority from that. So help me out and explain why it is that the Oldest guy in my newhire class in his fifties was behind the youngest guy in the class before him, in his thirties, yet no EEOC outrage was ignited. Why would you think the EEOC would have anything to do with a Labor Law accepted policy (arbitration generated list). If the Company were to discard the Nic list and (after the union was removed) and specifically place all old people at the bottom and you could prove that this was intentional, you may have something there. If you really think the Company was going to do this, at this point I find it unbelievable that you could twist this into that.

No CBA = No Nicolau, What sort of reality based facts can you show, make this a true statement.



Flip

 

[Flippin43]

DING DING DING DING We have a winner!

Are you westies getting it yet??? Almost five years and counting. WE're getting our attrition one day at a time. Go ahead and bk USAPA. We can care less at this point. As I expect, the end of usapa is near. What lies ahead? THE ABYSS.

Happy holidays!!!

J-----

Giving up on your baby already.


Didn't you say in much the same way that you were going to bring usapa to us and really show us a thing or two?


F

 

[Elevation]

DING DING DING DING We have a winner!

Are you westies getting it yet??? Almost five years and counting. WE're getting our attrition one day at a time. Go ahead and bk USAPA. We can care less at this point. As I expect, the end of usapa is near. What lies ahead? THE ABYSS.

Happy holidays!!!

I guess if you consider furloughing attrition... negative attrition.

 

[Metroyet]

DING DING DING DING We have a winner!

Are you westies getting it yet??? Almost five years and counting. WE're getting our attrition one day at a time. Go ahead and bk USAPA. We can care less at this point. As I expect, the end of usapa is near. What lies ahead? THE ABYSS.

Happy holidays!!!

WOW!!!! You're a criminal MASTERMIND!!!!!! Do you know Lex Luthor??!! Nobody can stay ahead of such brilliant chess play!!! (except Judge Wake and the Federal Legal System).

Good Luck with that plan Boy Wonder!!!