US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/14- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[Black Swan]

Finally.

An east guy with a little reality behind his post.

As much as the West wants and needs a contract, I really do not see the East agreeing to one with Nic. in it. Of course there are some self serving guys who will take the bait, because of pure financial need. Then there are those who think about themselves only. We are working on educating those who will take the bait, only to find the rusty hook once it has been set. The attrition is the attention getter for the East. Absolutely convinces 9 out of 10 to hang in there a little longer.
The reality is this- as much as either side wants and needs a contract, and both sides do- there is no way one is going to be offered that really will be acceptable to either side. Management is better served not offering one in two ways. 1- the longer they put off paying more, the better the bottom line looks. 2- "Failure" to put the two sides together gives them fantastic opportunity, a hole card, to split the airline up if it becomes necessary. This is not a failure on their part. It is a perceived failure from the vantage of labor. An absolute victory for Parker. This is a transactional management. Expect a transaction if they can pull it off. They have already shown their hand with Delta. Parker is Stephen Wolf II. Just like Wolf, when your entire thrust is to transact, you neglect the day to day operation. It is secondary. This is CLEARLY evident in the four years of the same old bad operation. And until you sell, you pick the low hanging fruit, milk the cow for all she has. If they need a contract to serve their goals, then one will be served. Obviously there is no need for them to do anything other than stall. This thing is better for them divided. Divided it shall remain. The only way any side gets a contract is if both sides are willing to sell themselves short to such a degree where it behooves management to pay a little more to reap contractually embedded windfalls that will give the buying partner an advantage in their negotiations with their labor group. A repeat of the situation we have right here.

 

[nycbusdriver]

As much as the West wants and needs a contract, I really do not see the East agreeing to one with Nic. in it. Of course there are...

... The only way any side gets a contract is if both sides are willing to sell themselves short to such a degree where it behooves management to pay a little more to reap contractually embedded windfalls that will give the buying partner an advantage in their negotiations with their labor group. A repeat of the situation we have right here.

You post pretty well sums up the status of the game. All the rest of the drama is embellishment.

Well said, Swan.

 

[cleardirect]

As much as the West wants and needs a contract, I really do not see the East agreeing to one with Nic. in it. Of course there are some self serving guys who will take the bait, because of pure financial need. Then there are those who think about themselves only. We are working on educating those who will take the bait, only to find the rusty hook once it has been set. The attrition is the attention getter for the East. Absolutely convinces 9 out of 10 to hang in there a little longer.
The reality is this- as much as either side wants and needs a contract, and both sides do- there is no way one is going to be offered that really will be acceptable to either side. Management is better served not offering one in two ways. 1- the longer they put off paying more, the better the bottom line looks. 2- "Failure" to put the two sides together gives them fantastic opportunity, a hole card, to split the airline up if it becomes necessary. This is not a failure on their part. It is a perceived failure from the vantage of labor. An absolute victory for Parker. This is a transactional management. Expect a transaction if they can pull it off. They have already shown their hand with Delta. Parker is Stephen Wolf II. Just like Wolf, when your entire thrust is to transact, you neglect the day to day operation. It is secondary. This is CLEARLY evident in the four years of the same old bad operation. And until you sell, you pick the low hanging fruit, milk the cow for all she has. If they need a contract to serve their goals, then one will be served. Obviously there is no need for them to do anything other than stall. This thing is better for them divided. Divided it shall remain. The only way any side gets a contract is if both sides are willing to sell themselves short to such a degree where it behooves management to pay a little more to reap contractually embedded windfalls that will give the buying partner an advantage in their negotiations with their labor group. A repeat of the situation we have right here.

Interesting perspective, I don’t disagree with some of your conclusion. However I do disagree with one of your basic premises. Splitting the airline is much more difficult that some make it appear. The rest of the airline is integrated, except for the pilots and F/A’s everyone has a joint contract. Res, ground, maint, accounting, engineering every is integrated and would pose quite a problem it split.

For example gate agents have begun to move around the system what do you do with them? You have a senior east person now in a “westâ€￾ city, do they go to the new west airline at whatever that pay rate is while a junior west agent went to an “eastâ€￾ city and they get the benefits of that new airline.

Question, with all east coast flight managers in place why would you expect anything different? That is one of Parker biggest mistakes, let the same people that ran a lousy operation before try and do it again. You do the same thing and get the same result.

 

[snapthis]

I like Lee and think that he has done a great job considering what we were up against in the desert courtroom.
Hate

After seeing his performance in the courtroom, I agree.

 

[cactusboy53]

QUOTE (Hate2fly @ Dec 22 2009, 08:54 PM)
"I like Lee and think that he has done a great job considering what we were up against in the desert courtroom.
Hate"

Oh Hate, don't be "hattin'". Lee has done a GREAT job!! Keep up the good fight and keep listening to Seham, he hasn't led you astray yet....right?

On a lighter note, PLEASE tune into this youtube video with The Late Late Show's Craig Ferguson (and be very thankful that he wasn't flying on any LCC feeders): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEHAQHxhQds

All arguments aside, please have a Very Merry Christmas and Blessed New Year. If you are fortunate enough to have the time off with your family...so much the better.

From the IAH overnight....
Cactusboy53.....aka.....Dave Simmons

 

[cleardirect]

I don't think that was a west guy. It was Knower of All Things. Hia contention along those lines made no sense. Court calendars are so jam packed that any judge would be loathe to hear a case (for two years) if one of the fundamental bases of the case (timeliness) wasn't met. The fact that it wasn't dismissed at the first hearing indicates that no deadline was missed.

Take a little time and read the order to dismiss and understand what happen before spouting off about things you don’t know. The motion to dismiss was for all of the charges except the new one about the Nicolau list and the only reason that did not get dismissed was because “fact issues remain†Meaning that the judge did not understand how a furloughed guy could be junior to another furloughed guy but still say he was mainline when the senior guy was not. The judge allowed the last complaint to remain, it is not as you characterize it as no deadline was missed. The judge needed more information that is it.

Whether the pilots were correctly designated as furloughed under the terms of the CBA, or whether that designation actually affected the US Airways’ seniority list are issues of fact that cannot be determined on a motion to dismiss.

It is also difficult to understand defendants’ causation argument that, even if plaintiffs had been designated as active on the seniority list submitted to the arbitrator, their positions on the integrated list would not have been affected. In the Award, the arbitrator made clear that the integrated list merged active US Airways pilots with active America West pilots, but that “merging active pilots with furloughees, despite the length of service of some of the latter, is not at all fair or
Case 1:05-cv-04751-NG-VVP Document 61 Filed 03/27/2008 Page 27 of 29
28
equitable under any of the stated criteria.†The Award further provided that “[n]o pilot on furlough on the effective date of the Integrated Seniority List may bump/displace an active pilot as a result, in and of itself, of the implementation of the Integrated Seniority List.†Thus, pilots who were designated as “furloughed†at the time of the Award were placed below either airlines’ set of “active†pilots. Plaintiffs allege that, at the time of the Award, they had already been recalled by US Airways and were therefore incorrectly designated as being currently furloughed.17 Accepting these allegations as true, and reading the Proposed Supplemental Complaint in the manner most favorable to plaintiffs, plaintiffs have adequately alleged that their injuries were caused by the defendants’ knowing stipulation to introduce an erroneous seniority list that they knew would adversely affect the careers and employment rights of their represented members. Plaintiffs’ motion for leave to file a supplemental complaint is therefore granted.

CONCLUSION
For the reasons discussed above, defendants’ motion to dismiss is granted in its entirety as
to all of the Counts in plaintiffs’ First Amended Complaint. Plaintiffs’ motion for leave to file a
Supplemental Complaint is granted.

Plaintiffs are directed to promptly serve and file their Supplemental Complaint, and
defendants are directed to answer in accordance with the time limits of the Federal Rules of Civil
Procedure. The parties are also directed to promptly proceed with discovery under the supervision

17 The Proposed Supplemental Complaint is unclear as to whether plaintiffs are alleging
that they were actually recalled by US Airways or that they should have been deemed recalled
under their theory of the case. Defendants appear to have interpreted their claims as only
alleging the latter. Plaintiffs, however, clarified in their briefs and on the record that they were
listed as active US Airways employees at the time of the Award, and not only according to their
theory that division employees are deemed recalled and entitled to mainline terms of
employment. Under either theory, fact issues remain.

 

[Hawkhunter]

Finally.

An east guy with a little reality behind his post.

A West guy who thinks we care.

 

[HPDriver]

I like Lee and think that he has done a great job considering what we were up against in the desert courtroom.

Hate

YGTBSM

 

[cleardirect]

The USAPA spin machine and personal attack dogs had better warm up.

Bad news coming!

 

[HPDriver]

A West guy who thinks we care.

Maybe you'll care about Ciabattoni resigning from USAPA. And not just from the EVP, but from everything.

Apparently, USAPA has become too much of a country club for Cleary and his band and DC has become tired of all the dues money being diverted to fund their opulent union lifestyles.

He writes:

"I chose to be part of a new Union that was founded on transparency, fiscal responsibility, and true representational leadership. Currently, I find none of that in the leadership of USAPA."

As I've mentioned numerous times before, the BPR has not been happy with Cleary's broad interpretation of his duties and powers and this is the first of what is going to be a few more bombshells.

USAPA's cracks have now become gaping holes.

If anyone wants that entire letter, PM me.

 

[N924PS]

Maybe you'll care about Ciabattoni resigning from USAPA. And not just from the EVP, but from everything.

Apparently, USAPA has become too much of a country club for Cleary and his band and DC has become tired of all the dues money being diverted to fund their opulent union lifestyles.

He writes:

"I chose to be part of a new Union that was founded on transparency, fiscal responsibility, and true representational leadership. Currently, I find none of that in the leadership of USAPA."

As I've mentioned numerous times before, the BPR has not been happy with Cleary's broad interpretation of his duties and powers and this is the first of what is going to be a few more bombshells.

USAPA's cracks have now become gaping holes.

If anyone wants that entire letter, PM me.

What a shame for DC to resign.

He was one of the most level headed, conscientious and articulate reps. Even going back to his ALPA service he always put his pilots first.

This is a real loss to USAPA and ALL USAirways pilots.

Perhaps this is the first salvo in a shake out that will finally bring better leadership to the USAirways pilot group.

 

[HPDriver]

I might point out the following as well from Ciabattoni. He was an EVP and understood the blatant censorship that occurred at USAPA. That same censorship that many an east pilot denied was happening.

"Nonetheless, the resignation letter will be made available to the pilot group through private email lists and hard copy postings in all the crew rooms to preclude USAPA censorship.



Dave Ciabattoni"

USAPA was a joke from the get-go.

Now its just sad.

 

[snapthis]

"Nonetheless, the resignation letter will be made available to the pilot group through private email lists and hard copy postings in all the crew rooms to preclude USAPA censorship.
Dave Ciabattoni"

USAPA was a joke from the get-go.

Now its just sad.

Everyone knows USAPA promotes free speech. Why should anyone be concerned about censorship? Does Dave know something we don't?

 

[HPDriver]

Everyone knows USAPA promotes free speech. Why should anyone be concerned about censorship? Does Dave know something we don't?

Dave knows about USAPA's censoring of the west.

 

[ableoneable]

Full text of Dave Ciabattoni's resignation letter. (Note to mods: Before you delete my post because this is a "confidential" communication read the fourth paragraph. Mr. Ciabattoni clearly wanted this letter disseminated.)

12-23-09

Dear BPR,

I hereby resign my position as Executive Vice President of USAPA effective immediately. I will simultaneously leave the Scope Monitoring Committee. Finally, at the end of the LOA 93 Grievance I shall resign from the System Board.

I must be blunt here: the mutation of USAPA from a democratic, line pilot oriented and controlled union into the current administration that is about enrichment and ease of life style for President Cleary and his supporters is nearly complete and in record time.

Had the Board been more assertive, as is your responsibility and Constitutional duty to enforce accountability, this might not have happened, but you were not and as a result, I have no desire to be associated with such an organization.

I fully expect that my complete resignation letter will be sent to the pilots when I make it available to USAPA. Nonetheless, the resignation letter will be made available to the pilot group through private email lists and hard copy postings in all the crew rooms to preclude USAPA censorship.

I chose to be part of a new Union that was founded on transparency, fiscal responsibility, and true representational leadership. Currently, I find none of that in the leadership of USAPA.

Good luck to you all and my sincere wish that USAPA rights itself and finds its way.

Dave Ciabattoni