US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/14- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[Flippin43]

Yo Clear,

Speaking of Eric.............how will the westies view Eric, Jeff and the other legal scholars within your ranks if the 9th doesn't go your way?

It should be interesting to see if your judge in the desert got it right or wrong.

A DFR based on a seniority proposal! Lets see if the desert judge can change established labor law.

It seems to me you guys out west couldn't wait to adjudicate...............oh well it is only money!

Hate

Hate,

If there was clear "established labor law" we wouldn't be here, would we. Quoting seham works about as well as when seham quotes himself.

The DFR has more pieces involved in it than just the seniority propsal. The TA was a bargin between 2 pilot groups. From day one usapa has denied at various times parts of that bargin and in so doing have advanced the majority group at our expense. This as you know is a voilation of "established labor law"

By the way do you remember back in 2002 when cleary and mowery were on the Merger Com. They published this in your local union magazine.


Beyond that, the absence of current employment
and uncertainties about future prospects are
among the equities likely to affect a furloughee’s
seniority placement.

I guess they hadn't heard about the "gold standard" yet.


F

 

[Hate2fly]

Let me guess what happens if it doesn't go according to Seeham.........

Why of course, the Supreme Court of the United States of America! Oh well, it's only money.....well spent? We shall see(ham).......

PS,

2010 will be the year of earthquakes within this pilot group. We have the 9th, LOA84 pay restoration and the MDA case. How about a possible merger? If the east wins just one of the three major disputes it really puts the westies in a terrible position. But they knew what they were doing when they took us to court in the desert. On the other hand if we in the east lose all three disputes, we still have our attrition in less than 3 years to provide pay increases.

Hate

 

[Hate2fly]

Hate,

If there was clear "established labor law" we wouldn't be here, would we. Quoting seham works about as well as when seham quotes himself.

The DFR has more pieces involved in it than just the seniority propsal. The TA was a bargin between 2 pilot groups. From day one usapa has denied at various times parts of that bargin and in so doing have advanced the majority group at our expense. This as you know is a voilation of "established labor law"

By the way do you remember back in 2002 when cleary and mowery were on the Merger Com. They published this in your local union magazine.


Beyond that, the absence of current employment
and uncertainties about future prospects are
among the equities likely to affect a furloughee’s
seniority placement.




Yo Flip,

Did they also mention windfalls in that writing? You forgot to mention Cardoza! I know all three very well.

Hate

 

[Flippin43]

PS,

2010 will be the year of earthquakes within this pilot group. We have the 9th, LOA84 pay restoration and the MDA case. How about a possible merger? If the east wins just one of the three major disputes it really puts the westies in a terrible position. But they knew what they were doing when they took us to court in the desert. On the other hand if we in the east lose all three disputes, we still have our attrition in less than 3 years to provide pay increases.

Hate

Hate,

If the MDA case is only asking for money from Alpa, how in the world would it have anything to do with a West pilot.

F

 

[Flippin43]

Yo Flip,

Did they also mention windfalls in that writing? You forgot to mention Cardoza! I know all three very well.

Hate



Hate,

They did point this out as well,

"Each case presents its own facts and equities, and
each requires a resolution tailor-made to the
situation presented".


I hadn't heard of Cardoza, but then since he hasn't been blathering on about a, gold standard, that might explain it.

Because you say something is a windfall doesn't make it so.

If I were to say that it was all fair, I guess it was. Right!


F

 

[AWE Dog]

No. Once again, the Nic is not on the table and never will be.

If the east gets letter 84 pay rates, how much are the west pilots willing to let the Nic cost them? Letter 84 rates or not, there's not a contract in sight.

 

[Dogandsuds]

Hate,

If the MDA case is only asking for money from Alpa, how in the world would it have anything to do with a West pilot.

F

Dear Flippin43, since I've got more than a casual interest in the MDA DFR, I've followed it. MDA only wants money, you say. That's not exactly the whole story. If ALPA loses in court, then MDA gets money plus legal proof that the list was wrong. That can then be presented to Nicolau. Whether he does anything knowing he made a ruling on an inaccuate list is anyone's guess. If ALPA settles out of court without admitting an inaccurate list, then that probably can't be thrown back at Nic. Any cash settlement better be very big if there's no ALPA admission of an inaccurate list. I hope that explains the issue in simple terms. I'm not on top of the case enough to predict how it will go. It's been kept close to the vest by the MDA attorney. I will say to the West guy who said the MDA lawsuit was filed too late, if that were the case, it would have been thrown out two years ago. It's very alive and near the end.

To those who came to my defense on my last post, thanks, I guess, but I can speak for myself. I won't get dragged down in all (both sides) of your ridiculous trivia and arguments over the nickels and dimes when we're talking almost 1,000 jobs at stake with the Kirby proposal. Arguing over whether I was off by 50 or 100 is a waste of time. I didn't think what I posted was all that controversial. The two current contracts and the aircraft numbers explain it pretty well. The Kirby proposal would reduce aircraft minimums and increase line ranges. No matter which side you're on, Kirby costs jobs.

Best regards, Dogandsuds

 

[cleardirect]

Yo Clear,

Speaking of Eric.............how will the westies view Eric, Jeff and the other legal scholars within your ranks if the 9th doesn't go your way?

It should be interesting to see if your judge in the desert got it right or wrong.

A DFR based on a seniority proposal! Lets see if the desert judge can change established labor law.

It seems to me you guys out west couldn't wait to adjudicate...............oh well it is only money!

Hate

It really is sad that you east pilots including the USAPA leadership that should know better and has a responsibility to be informed and honest, it is not our judge in the desert. He is a federal judge following the law. If you or anyone has the first scrap of evidence other than you don’t like the outcome please contact someone in authority, otherwise it is pathetic to denigrate a man because you were wrong.

Listen to the ninth circuit audio, that court had no question and no issues with anything the federal judge did besides ripeness. I don’t know who you have been listening to but he has not established new labor law and continually calling it a proposal does not change the facts. Would you have us believe that only on the east side of the country do they know what the law is? Well maybe not in the case of the RICO suit that did go against USAPA in a NC court.

As far as how we will view the gentleman that lead this legal pursuit, stand up guys that put themselves and their money on the line to protect the west pilots from the tyranny of the majority. If the court finds it not ripe yet that does not change the facts. USAPA has been found liable of DFR that does not change. We just have to wait for USAPA to do what they have promised to do (if they are able, unlikely). Then we go back to court and quite possibly get a summary judgment.

I am curious what you and all the east guys are going to call the ninth circuit when they rule against you? Since this is what your beloved leadership said.

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals and, if necessary, the United States Supreme Court, are the appropriate places for the law to be truly vetted.

If they are so confident in the case why plan to fail and head to the Supreme Court?

What are you going to think or Seham and usapa if the ninth rules in our favor?

 

[boeingplt]

Dear Flippin43, since I've got more than a casual interest in the MDA DFR, I've followed it. MDA only wants money, you say. That's not exactly the whole story. If ALPA loses in court, then MDA gets money plus legal proof that the list was wrong. That can then be presented to Nicolau. Whether he does anything knowing he made a ruling on an inaccuate list is anyone's guess. If ALPA settles out of court without admitting an inaccurate list, then that probably can't be thrown back at Nic. Any cash settlement better be very big if there's no ALPA admission of an inaccurate list. I hope that explains the issue in simple terms. I'm not on top of the case enough to predict how it will go. It's been kept close to the vest by the MDA attorney. I will say to the West guy who said the MDA lawsuit was filed too late, if that were the case, it would have been thrown out two years ago. It's very alive and near the end.

To those who came to my defense on my last post, thanks, I guess, but I can speak for myself. I won't get dragged down in all (both sides) of your ridiculous trivia and arguments over the nickels and dimes when we're talking almost 1,000 jobs at stake with the Kirby proposal. Arguing over whether I was off by 50 or 100 is a waste of time. I didn't think what I posted was all that controversial. The two current contracts and the aircraft numbers explain it pretty well. The Kirby proposal would reduce aircraft minimums and increase line ranges. No matter which side you're on, Kirby costs jobs.

Best regards, Dogandsuds

You are very much on the money

 

[HPDriver]

If the east gets letter 84 pay rates, how much are the west pilots willing to let the Nic cost them? Letter 84 rates or not, there's not a contract in sight.

It'll be here faster than you think.

 

[HPDriver]

That can then be presented to Nicolau.

And what do you think he's going to do with that?

Zippo.

He worked with a list that was scrubbed and approved by the MC.

You MDA guys need to let go. Your case is just about dead.

 

[cleardirect]

And what do you think he's going to do with that?

Zippo.

He worked with a list that was scrubbed and approved by the MC.

You MDA guys need to let go. Your case is just about dead.

Somehow Dogandsuds quote got attached to me. NOT my words, NOT MDA.

I agree with you the east MC handed over a list, Nicolau relied on good faith and he issued a list in good faith. The MDA guys have a looooong way to go with zero hope of getting the Nicolau list changed because of some law suit after the fact.

 

[Hate2fly]

It really is sad that you east pilots including the USAPA leadership that should know better and has a responsibility to be informed and honest, it is not our judge in the desert. He is a federal judge following the law. If you or anyone has the first scrap of evidence other than you don’t like the outcome please contact someone in authority, otherwise it is pathetic to denigrate a man because you were wrong.

Listen to the ninth circuit audio, that court had no question and no issues with anything the federal judge did besides ripeness. I don’t know who you have been listening to but he has not established new labor law and continually calling it a proposal does not change the facts. Would you have us believe that only on the east side of the country do they know what the law is? Well maybe not in the case of the RICO suit that did go against USAPA in a NC court.

As far as how we will view the gentleman that lead this legal pursuit, stand up guys that put themselves and their money on the line to protect the west pilots from the tyranny of the majority. If the court finds it not ripe yet that does not change the facts. USAPA has been found liable of DFR that does not change. We just have to wait for USAPA to do what they have promised to do (if they are able, unlikely). Then we go back to court and quite possibly get a summary judgment.

I am curious what you and all the east guys are going to call the ninth circuit when they rule against you? Since this is what your beloved leadership said.

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals and, if necessary, the United States Supreme Court, are the appropriate places for the law to be truly vetted.

If they are so confident in the case why plan to fail and head to the Supreme Court?

What are you going to think or Seham and usapa if the ninth rules in our favor?

Yo Clear,

You already know what I think of your judge in the desert! And guess what, the majority of east pilots feel the same way I do about the judge. I remember Bringle saying to the judge.....I have been doing this for 33 years and never had a judge tell me that! How about Granath telling the judge he is about to have NMB lawyers parachuting into his court room.

I will tell you how I feel about the 9th when they finish with their work! I have listened to the audio 5 times and I would be worried if I were a westie. Tashima and Graber seemed extremely concerned about page 278/279.........for these reasons we do not require or even permit union members to bring this suit against their union simply because the union has announced future intention to breach its duty.[/b

And then Graber saying.........What was the act as distinct from future stated intention? And then asking what did they do?
I am USAPA along with my 3000 plus union brothers and sisters. I like Lee and think that he has done a great job considering what we were up against in the desert courtroom.

Hate

 

[Tiger 1050]

Hate,
What exactly do you suppose motivated Judge Wake to be biased against you?

 

[hp_fa]

I will tell you how I feel about the 9th when they finish with their work!

I don't know whether to laugh, cry or congratulate you for being an honest man.