US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/14- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[VAflyGal]

I have a question for you guys, probably one that can't be answered, but here goes. How do think this will all end for you? You've been going around and around for almost five years now, with no end or agreement in site. Each side has vowed to dig their heels in, come hell or high water. You go back and forth in court eternally, then when one side loses you vow to appeal and repeat process ad nauseum.

Clearly it is a horrible situation for everyone involved and, quite frankly, I'm glad AFA is moving forward with negotiations so we don't have to wait 30 more years for you guys to (never) work it out.

But really, how do you think it's gonna end?

 

[cleardirect]

I have a question for you guys, probably one that can't be answered, but here goes. How do think this will all end for you? You've been going around and around for almost five years now, with no end or agreement in site. Each side has vowed to dig their heels in, come hell or high water. You go back and forth in court eternally, then when one side loses you vow to appeal and repeat process ad nauseum.

Clearly it is a horrible situation for everyone involved and, quite frankly, I'm glad AFA is moving forward with negotiations so we don't have to wait 30 more years for you guys to (never) work it out.

But really, how do you think it's gonna end?

That is a very good question. It should have ended May 2007 when the agreed to arbitration was released.

It should have ended when the jury in Arizona found USAPA liable of not representing west pilots. It should end when the ninth circuit rules that the judge got it right. Everyone the west pilots, the company, the arbitrator and now the court understands it has to end. The only people that don’t understand are a shrinking minority of hard line east pilots.

It will end when those radical east pilots do as you say, “moving forward with negotiationsâ€￾. When the east pilots finally accept what the rest of the world knows and decides to get on with improving their lot in life instead of holding their fellow pilots, flight attendants, the other 30,000 US Airways employees and the company hostage to their ranting then we can move on.

If you listen to the ninth circuit questions the judges were asking the same question. If it is not ripe now when will it end? Seham’s answer to the court, It could go on interminably. As you can see there is a group of east pilots quite happy to run separate ops as long as they are getting what they want.

So to answer your question simply when the east pilots finally accept the inevitably and stop fighting a losing battle then the rest of us can move forward. It is up to the east pilots and their leadership. If the AFA could put some pressure on USAPA to drop this and move on because the pilots are holding you up I think everyone would appreciate that effort.

The east pilots have not felt any pressure from the other employee groups for delaying progress for their own selfish reasons. It is time for the rest of the employees to stop supporting bad behavior and let them know it is time to stop the nonsense.

 

[cactusboy53]

How kind of you. Just to show our are heart is in the right place. With a DOH list we would welcome all west pilots to PHL that would want to bid it. I have no desire for PHX, but under Nic I get what new hire O'dell doesn't want. Save Dave, How offensive is that. Save a new hire to screw a group of pilots with over 15+ years service. Nice!

Just keep praying to your patron saint of US Air lost causes....."St. Happenin'". The westies are getting a little tired of hearing you & your buddies bellyache. The ninth's decision is coming out sometime after the new year, and your delay tactics may now cost you money out of your pockets (other than dues). The damages portion of the trial is just around the corner.

Me? I'm thankful that I have a job at this juncture. I keep all furlougees in my daily prayers and do so twice for the ones that were furloughed OUT OF SENIORITY ORDER. I even keep you & those in your camp in my prayers. Matthew 5:44

Are there any east pilots out there that realize that these events will likely now cost you personally? Do you believe that Cleary & Mowrey are following legal counsel's advice NO MATTER WHAT THE COST? Perhaps you care to join us at: www.cactuspilot.com

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

 

[BoeingBoy]

If the rules, like "no windfalls for either side" are not held to, then you get a lawsuit.

While anyone can file a lawsuit for just about any reason, the lawsuit you're talking about would probably never see the inside of a courtroom. Courts have shown no tendency to overrule an arbitrators decision when both sides agreed to the arbitration. The only chance you had was to claim fraud or such, and the window for that lawsuit closed quite a while ago.

Jim

 

[HPDriver]

While anyone can file a lawsuit for just about any reason, the lawsuit you're talking about would probably never see the inside of a courtroom. Courts have shown no tendency to overrule an arbitrators decision when both sides agreed to the arbitration. The only chance you had was to claim fraud or such, and the window for that lawsuit closed quite a while ago.

Jim

I don't recall and lawsuits being filed by the east regarding "windfalls."

 

[Dogandsuds]

Small detail. Dave actually HAD a job. Those below him on the Nic. were Wal-Mart Greeters or commutter pilots...don't know which is worse. Many US Air furloughees went to work for AWA. Crazy I know...Forgetting US Air and getting on with life and all.

Dear Metro,

Or flying 757s/MD-11s overseas, sir. You totally mischaracterize what our 2002-2005 furloughees were doing when the merger was announced. I am not sure what kind of message you were trying to relate, but it seems that every time an east pilot posts, one of you comes out with an East bashing reply. No matter how polite or non-controversial I've tried to be, it's the same rudeness. Why? As I said before, how NIC/DOH turns out isn't going to effect me too much over my career, if and when I ever get recalled. I'm not working at Wal-Mart, or a commuter. It's overseas flying again, but its heavy metal. In a way I lucked out getting furloughed early. It's getting really dry out there now.

Speaking of "Dave," it was your MEC that originated the "Save Dave" campaign back in 2005. Our MEC jumped on board. Two of your Reps voted against the TA when Dave couldn't be saved with a non-furlough clause. You then recalled both of them. So if anyone was against the "Save-Dave" campaign when it really mattered, it was your own FO Reps, who all voted for the TA.

I got bashed as being naive for listening to our furlough committee. The FC has never put out anything but the facts. They helped me get one well-paying job, which led to another good one. They're not political. As with all USAPA committees that I've dealt with while on furlough, I get quick, accurate responses from volunteers who really are trying to improve service, much better than I ever saw with ALPA.

One last thing, where we'd be right now with the Kirby contract. Instead of TA limit of 302 aircraft, we'd have 250, per Kirby. Right now, pending the outcome of the Addington DFR, I doubt if the company would have signed a new contract unless it had the NIC in it. Aircraft reductions alone generate over 800 furloughs. Add to that another 150 due to Kirby's 99-hour months and 70 less needed with the four years to full vacation parity. Who knows how many PBS would cost. That's a total of over 1,000 furloughs, plus seat and equipment losses, falling mainly on East pilots with a NIC list. That pretty much sums up why East pilots aren't too keen on signing a contract that costs most active pilots money and puts more on the streets. Before you start accusing the NAC of stalling, keep in mind it's the company that only wants to meet once a month under NMB mediation.

Sincerely,

Dogandsuds

 

[Schultz]

I have a question for you guys, probably one that can't be answered, but here goes. How do think this will all end for you? You've been going around and around for almost five years now, with no end or agreement in site. Each side has vowed to dig their heels in, come hell or high water. You go back and forth in court eternally, then when one side loses you vow to appeal and repeat process ad nauseum.

Clearly it is a horrible situation for everyone involved and, quite frankly, I'm glad AFA is moving forward with negotiations so we don't have to wait 30 more years for you guys to (never) work it out.

But really, how do you think it's gonna end?

My guess--- The Addington case will be tossed for ripeness. A new merger will be annouced and we will start all over with three lists to be merged instead of two. Just like Doug said.

 

[N924PS]

My guess--- The Addington case will be tossed for ripeness. A new merger will be annouced and we will start all over with three lists to be merged instead of two. Just like Doug said.

Things will get really interesting when trying to merge the Republic pilots with the USAirways list (or lists, if you prefer)!

 

[nycbusdriver]

I have a question for you guys, probably one that can't be answered, but here goes. How do think this will all end for you? You've been going around and around for almost five years now, with no end or agreement in site. Each side has vowed to dig their heels in, come hell or high water. You go back and forth in court eternally, then when one side loses you vow to appeal and repeat process ad nauseum.

Clearly it is a horrible situation for everyone involved and, quite frankly, I'm glad AFA is moving forward with negotiations so we don't have to wait 30 more years for you guys to (never) work it out.

But really, how do you think it's gonna end?

I'm glad the AFA is finally getting out from under that "me, too" mentality and willing to lead the charge for their membership. Good luck (seriously) in your contract negotiations. Except for that "me, too" mentality, I often found the AFA to be far more gutsier than the wimps running ALPA.

And, how do I think it's gonna end? I don't know, but I do know you won't see a 5,000 pilot group hug to choruses of KumBaYa anytime this millenium.

 

[cleardirect]

My guess--- The Addington case will be tossed for ripeness. A new merger will be annouced and we will start all over with three lists to be merged instead of two. Just like Doug said.

And I guess the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause and the Tooth fairy are all real too?

What evidence or legal rule are you looking at that makes you think that in the next merger (if there is one) we would use three lists?

UAL is an ALPA carrier they (ALPA national) screwed up the last time I seriously doubt that they would endanger themselves this time by ignoring the Nicoalu list.

AA after they tried to staple all of us to the bottom of their list I doubt that they are going to want to play the DOH game. The new law says arbitration. What list do you think an arbitrator is going to ask from when he is presented with a single carrier on the US Airways side? Thanks USAPA for forcing that on us.

Single carrier status, single list accepted by the company, single list to merger with the other airline.

Besides you all had better hope that he uses the Nicolau list. Otherwise if he has to blend all three lists by relative seniority you east boys are going to be even more unhappy than you are now. WITHOUT a majority to try and force things your way. Get used to it, your DOH list with any other airline in this country is a non starter. I suggest that everyone read what the arbitrator NWA/DAL merger and understand how that works.

 

[N924PS]

To EastUS,

Thank you for the "Holiday Best Wishes" :wacko: PM. I'll cherish and keep if for a long time since it shows your true nature as a human being.

Best wishes back at you,

Jim

Jim,

I'm glad to see I'm in good company. I received about nine PM's from our old friend EastUS this evening as well. He's unusually vitriolic this holiday season.

He challenged me to a dogfight for my net worth, insulted me in numerous ways and told me I wasn't "worth killing."

This man has some serious issues, and I have kept records of his PM's for future use if necessary.

Moderators take note.

 

[BoeingBoy]

My dear EastUS,

Although I'm not Jewish, I apprreciate your "Hanukkah" greetings PM as well. Reflecting on your kind words, it occured to me that you might be Jewish, so Hanukkah greeting to you also.

In the spirit of good will to all,

Jim

 

[Flippin43]

My guess--- The Addington case will be tossed for ripeness. A new merger will be annouced and we will start all over with three lists to be merged instead of two. Just like Doug said.

Schultz,

"Your Guess" would be wrong on at least one count. The Nicolau list is the US Airways pilot seniority list. East pilots, West pilots and the Company have previously agreed to this. For the time being separate operations will continue until a contract is ratified. If a merger were to transpire before a contract is ratified, the nic list will be used for that integration, this is because it is the last list that was the result of an accepted and agreed upon process and has been accepted by the Company. DOH will not exist even if usapa is allowed to negotiate for one unless it is ratified before a merger.

"Just like Doug said"...........?

So if you are now placing alot of credibility to what Doug says? He also said AAA was about to Liquidate. How exactly was that going to provide any east pilot the career expectation of retiring off the A330. Help me out here?

F

 

[fatherabraham]

Happy Holidays All,

Ive missed Eastus! My $ says he would be strait up and share his viewpoint with ya whether PC or not.
You east ( past and present ) who support the Nic only share such views behind the secrecy of a keyboard are highly suspicous in my POV. If actually open in the workplace with such views then I would have a tad bit of repect for your manhood. Years have gone by w/o anyone on the east stepping up firsthand to me ( or secondhand by word ) with a Nic approval viewpoint. I'll leave it up to you as to your conclusions of said character. Not a sole at this combined airline could stir any negative physical/verbal outburst from me with any viewpoint. That said.....I will not hesitate in calling a spade a spade. It would be a Holiday treat to meet you East supporters of NIC

FA

 

[BoeingBoy]

Sorry - dupe post.

Jim