US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/14- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[nic4us]

I want nothing from the west, never did. But I do want the east attrition. Put up a 15 year Mississippi fence. The word fence is almost as bad as DOH with the west. Not wanting a fence just proves to me who really wants the whole pie.

Dog,

The problem is, the east attrition was considered in the award and factored into the Nic. It was the attrition rate that got the top 517 and a ratio. If you did not have the attrition you may have gotten 1 for 1 from the top, that would have put Odell at 3760 with 1800 active east below him and all the furloughs below that. The point being, you cannot now say, I only want what is mine, because it is not yours anymore, you spent it to get what you now have. Your saying you want nothing from the West, but then putting a condition of what you want, would be no different than me saying, I really do not want anything from the east, but I do want more than I got in the Nic, if the east has to pay to make that happen oh well they did not deserve what they got in the deal anyway.

The reality of our situation is we do not need a fence. Usapa's C&R fence was laughable. If they wanted to protect the attrition, they would have fenced the attrition not West bases with a one way fence that would allow east in but be impractical for the West to get out.

 

[2BorNot2B]

And please don't post definitions. Its a waste of space.

... and so are your posts!

 

[nic4us]

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Freund's remarks when put in the proper context to compel the company to accept the Nic? In other words this is a piece of the total proposal (contract)...

The Freund quote in question happened when he was explaining the facts at an ALPA meeting of the minds, and it is most definitely misunderstood when taken out of context.

The east posters love to bring up the out of context Freund quote, but I prefer these quotes from Freund.

"Unlike AWAPPA, which has done nothing unlawful, usapa has already pledged to take actions that are unlawful; to wit, changing the seniority list produced by the Nicolau panel, and accepted by the company."

"my clients will bring an appropriate action for injunctive relief and damages."

It gets even better when during pre-RICO filling he tells Seeham, you got nothing on these people, some of this activity is lawful protected activity, start saving all your e-mails, files, phone records, etc. But, usapa was still unwise enough to file that RICO suit.

 

[cleardirect]

This is just a couple of things that three experienced arbitrators had to say about the DAL/NWA attrition. There is more you all can go look it up. They addressed the attrition issue a lot. Some of the more interesting footnotes. They used ALPA merger policy just like us except their MC were reasonable. This was not talked about here much as the east has chosen to ignore this relative integration. If you wanted to protect attrition you should have worked on that instead of DOH as you were told by the arbitrator to drop.

At the same time, the Board rejects the NWA proposal to adopt, as a relevant
community, all such older Northwest Pilots. To do so would be to overweight the top
end of the Seniority List so substantially, and for so long, as to devitalize any hopes of
achieving fairness and equity. Moreover, as will be noted, one may not fairly ignore
other reasonable projections in evidence that must also be considered in assessing
overall career expectations.

Equity demands that the Northwest pilots’ expectations not be fully foiled by the
merger. Fairness, however, requires some tempering of the potential impact power of
the adjustment mechanism. It would be myopic for this Board to focus solely on the
stand-alone attrition expectations of the NWA pilot group. We accept they may
constitute a legitimate career expectation, but one must also consider other elements
reasonably regarded as potentially dampening those expectations.20


20 It is also appropriate to consider gains that flow from the merger. While it is true that both pilot forces
are compensated relatively well, by comparison with the average U.S. airline, it is also the case that, on a
stand-alone basis, Northwest Pilots were paid less than their counterparts at Delta. Due to the success of
the parties in bargaining a new Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (“JCBAâ€￾) effective October 30,
2008, (October 30, 2008, is the date of corporate closing of the merger.) Northwest Pilots enjoyed
immediate benefits averaging 9.51% across the group. Delta characterizes this as equivalent to the value
of one to two-and-one-half upgrades, depending on the equipment type, for each pre-merger pilot. (See
DX-21 at 11-13; DX-37 at 2; Tr., 2549-55.)

8 As in all such exercises, the focus here is necessarily on groups, not on any individual pilot. Inevitably,
and unavoidably, there will be perceived disparities and mismatches on individual levels, on both sides,
under the merged list.

11 Thus, as of July 1, 2008, a straight Date-of-Hire list allocates, among the top 1,500 positions, 246 to
Delta Pilots and the remaining 1,254 to Northwest. The bottom 500 Pilots include approximately 320
Delta Pilots and 150 Northwest Pilots. (NWX I-31 (A)). Five years later, there are 1,195 Northwest Pilots
to Delta’s 305 among the top 1,500 positions. (NWX I-31(B)). Even 10 years later, in 2018, while Delta
has gained the advantage among the first 1,500 positions (816 to 684), the first 750 jobs are populated,
2:1, by Northwest Pilots. The Delta pilots fare relatively well in 2023 – 15 years after the merger – but the
community of pilots affected by the methodology has, by then, shrunk to about 5,000.
(NWX I-33 (A).

 

[nycbusdriver]

So you're saying the Nic is the result of a contract and is final and binding. Thanks.

Jim

No. I'm saying there's such a thing as divorce.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I am not JS.

He would be number 1 in PHX though. And the next 10-15 would also be former PSA pilots living west of the Mississippi.

Including Sully......

Mrs. JS:

Are you using your husband's computer again?

 

[HPDriver]

... and so are your posts!

Ouch.

That'll keep me awake at night.

 

[luvthe9]

Gee Jim, I thought you said"My money is on Parker" how's it working for you so far????

Sorry I menat to say John!!!!! not Jim

 

[N924PS]

Mrs. JS:

Are you using your husband's computer again?

No GK, she's not.

 

[Waketurbulence]

No. I'm saying there's such a thing as divorce.

So, is a divorce final and binding?

 

[cleardirect]

For all of you legal research experts out there. Could someone find a final and binding arbitration case that was overturned without finding fraud?

Final and binding has a legal meaning and it is designed to be so. Arguing about it is a waste of time. Just because Seham says that final and binding is meaningless does not make it so.

Is there a case that was not final and binding without fraud or that has past it’s ripeness date?

 

[nycbusdriver]

So, is a divorce final and binding?

Nothing is final and binding.

Well....maybe death.

 

[jetjok1]

You getting paid when your trip cancels?

Nah, son!, i don't need the money. I just make it 36 holes!. But you, I suspect that's not the case! But, hey, your hourly is above mine. You do have that going for ya!

 

[Waketurbulence]

Nah, son!, i don't need the money. I just make it 36 holes!. But you, I suspect that's not the case! But, hey, your hourly is above mine. You do have that going for ya!

Good for you. I happen to play 18 yesterday and 18 today thanks to being cancelled to PHL.

I am paid the original trip credit, plus I get two extra days off .

Question for you...is now the time when there is a mad scramble on the east to pick up any open time to cover lost wages due to cancellations?

Good thing you don't need the money, but I sure many of your comrades do.

Wouldn't a contract make life better for those that now have to now work on their days off just to make up for a LOA93 giveback?

P.S. Please don't call me son.

 

[Waketurbulence]

Nothing is final and binding.

Well....maybe death.

And the Nic'