US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/14- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

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Yo Nic4,

Even your west brothers would vote our way because they will make captain in record time! Money Talks BS Walks!

Moving up is moving up! The west one size fits all pay with very little attrition......oh that hurts!

Age 60 Int'l ops is already having issues for the company..........440 over sixty already and 720 by this time next year...........it only gets worse. Not our problem that the company has to carry more east pilots on the list for the over age sixty issue. More east pilot positions is a good thing.

Hate

Really, and what is to keep the company from requiring over age 60 f/o's to be limited to domestic flying only?

Please don't say seniority. I believe federal will control.

Up or out gentlemen.

 

[Megasnoop]

Now, we get to Megasnoop's "faulty" list. Contrary to what he stated, the certified list was presented at the start of the seniority integration process. It was the list that was used throughout East/West negotiations. That list was certified while the East MEC was still insisting that MDA was not mainline, so guess what - the list showed the MDA pilots as being furloughed. Of course, once that certified list was presented as the "complete and accurate" list for negotiations, a new list couldn't just surface tor the arbitration - the same list was used. Jim

You missed my point. Contrary to what I stated? I dont remember ever saying when the list was presented. If I did, so what? When was irrelevant. Who generated the list isn't important either. As CBA, the presented list was an ALPA work product, even if it was made up by Boss Hogg. It doesn't make any difference who put it together.

Absent a union, there is no obligation by the company to follow any part of the contract. A contract must have at least two parties for it to be valid. If one party goes away (USAPA?), there is no contract.
If USAPA goes away, there is no entity to assume the CBA. Hence, your contract, and mine, are meaningless. We are employees at will. It's our equivalent of the "nuclear option." Are we willing to do it? Quite possibly, IMHO.
Oh, and the company is NOT enjoined by the court, no matter how much you wish it were. I believe Wake dismissed the company from the suit on the first day, and they have simply been bystanders. The wording of the injunction is specifically directed at USAPA, and USAPA's negotiations with the company.

Those are the parts they'll never get, NYC. I'm beginning to think the west would throw USAPA out even if it meant no union. Your right, no union, there's no contract, nothing enforceable, anyway, because no entity to enforce it. The company is by-standers, but very interested bystanders. One thing interesting at the 9th. I saw the company doing a big interested bystander at the 9th. Al Hemenway, Beth Holdren, Paul Jones and even outside counsel Bob Segal. I got my own ideas why. They don't care how this ends. They just want it to end. The sooner its over, the sooner they got a simpler product to sell.

I've said it before. If the company was enjoined by Wakes decision, the Nicolau would have been in effect already. It's not.

Again, NYC, they don't get it. They don't understand the limits of judges and trials. Maybe Wake doesn't understand his own limits either. We'll find that out soon enough.

How many times does it need to be explained to you? The company is "enjoined" by the TA. We all know what the TA says about seniority integration. That process was completed and it complied with the 5 conditions that were outline in the TA. They have a list and they've said time and again they're going to use it...the nic. Wake didn't dismiss the company from having to comply with the TA!

Not enjoined by any kind of court order. But come on, same answer to your same old song. The Nic can't be used under any condition until there is mutual agreement on a new contract. Again, you just don't get it. Wake has NO control on how the company complies with the TA. If the company fails to comply, its a dispute, then arbitration. IF you think USAPA fails it DFR responsibilities to persue a dispute and that failure results in a concrete, measurable loss, then you can sue USAPA. But you can't touch the company. As the sole CBA, only USAPA can file dispute and their dispute power is limited to the TA rules, arbitration.

 

[HPDriver]

Its unfortunate that the east is allowing a small bloc of pilots to control the fate of our entire group. But what's good to see is this small bloc understands their hold on power is slipping, and faster than expected.

Simply, the east has three groups of pilots: senior, junior captain, and angry FOs. That middle group of pilots is the swing vote and was responsible for carrying USAPA onto the property (barely I might add). They're a group that comes in, does their trip, and goes home. They've become apathetic and disenchanted by USAPA as two years has almost come and they're no better off.

So what are they waiting for? The appeal and snapback. That's it. Once these last two bastions of hope fall, they'll have nothing to move forward with and I think you'll see even more pressure being applied to USAPA to move forward.

The next few months are going to get hot for the east leadership.

 

[AWE Dog]

Yo HpDriver,

AWE DOG is pretty good with math and money! I called him during the furlough and offered him a 100K job and he turned me down numerous times. He didn't touch an airplane for 4 years. Family is a wonderful thing!




Hate

Hate I did appreciate the offers, I would have enjoyed working with you. A great group of guys flying the big iron. I just didn't want to drive that hour to get there. I was perfectly happy being furloughed. Just here for the Vote now.

 

[HPDriver]

It doesn't make any difference who put it together.

Lawyer: So, I understand it was your east MC that put the list together, correct?

East: Yes.

Lawyer: And the MC consisted of your own pilots?

East: Yes

Lawyer: So your own pilots put your list together?

East: Yes

Lawyer: And now you don't like the list that your own pilots put together.

East: That's correct.

-------

Ummm, ya, I'm going to have to say it does matter.

 

[HPDriver]

Hate I did appreciate the offers, I would have enjoyed working with you. A great group of guys flying the big iron. I just didn't want to drive that hour to get there. I was perfectly happy being furloughed. Just here for the Vote now.

Driving one hour for a job that makes $100K or staying on furlough.

:unsure:

Anyone else want to reply to this one?

 

[AWE Dog]

And please don't pull the AA crap of "superior pilot" hiring. You know as well as I do how the hiring in this industry works. The should be beneath even you (though not by much).
[/quote]
I know a little about pilot hiring, I did it for a while at company called Pan Am, ever heard of them? You might be to young. And not the post b/k one.

 

[HPDriver]

And please don't pull the AA crap of "superior pilot" hiring. You know as well as I do how the hiring in this industry works. The should be beneath even you (though not by much).

I know a little about pilot hiring, I did it for a while at company called Pan Am, ever heard of them? You might be to young. And not the post b/k one.

Then all the more reason to not pull that crap.

 

[AWE Dog]

Driving one hour for a job that makes $100K or staying on furlough.

:unsure:

Anyone else want to reply to this one?

HP, It just shows that you truly do not understand. They can't not put enough money in a joint contract for me to sign it.

 

[HPDriver]

HP, It just shows that you truly do not understand. They can't not put enough money in a joint contract for me to sign it.

No, obviously I don't.

And as for voting on the contract, I'm guessing you're going to be in the minority. Many actually do care a bit about the money. Especially those that are having a hard time paying bills, worried about retirement, or wanting to send their kids off to a good school.

Something has got to give, and I can guarantee you it won't be the Nic.

 

[Metroyet]

HP, It just shows that you truly do not understand. They can't not put enough money in a joint contract for me to sign it.

So What?! You're in the Angry FO club. You're a minor subset of the total group. Good Luck holding the 35,000 employees hostage with your singular, minority vote!

 

[Hate2fly]

So What?! You're in the Angry FO club. You're a minor subset of the total group. Good Luck holding the 35,000 employees hostage with your singular, minority vote!

Yo Metroyet and HPDriver,

Do yourselves a favor and pull any east guy over in the airport and ask him how he will vote with the Nicolau award attached to a contract. Doing it while someone is in the jumpseat is BS. They will always tell you what you want to hear! Do you really think we care what the other 30,000 employees think of us and our right to vote. Guys like you have been the greatest selling point back east.........so that this travesty called the Nic doesn't ever happen. You guys have been frantic ever since the 9th audio hit the airwaves. That ripeness issue must have the desert judge wondering if he let it get to far. I still think he got a little ahead of himself. Premature Adjudication!

Good luck!

Hate

 

[BoeingBoy]

You guys have been frantic ever since the 9th audio hit the airwaves.

That explains all the new East posters - the ones that aren't rejoicing about the injunction being lifted by the 9th but instead saying they'll never vote for a contract TA containing the Nic. Oh..wait - that's backwards. If they're saying they won't vote for a TA with Nic then they must figure the Nic will be in any contract TA. Gosh, that means they figure USAPA will lose in the 9th!

Sounds like it's the East that's worried about the 9th...

Jim

 

[Dogandsuds]

Dear Hate,

It's been a while since I've read the board here. Looks like not much has changed. Still the same accusations, slams, insults, like Farleys.

Hate-

Bully for you and your vote. YOU run the pilot club, what has that gotten anyone? Enjoy your $10, I got my $10k every year since the merger and will continue to get mine even after yours has run out. (check out the pay rates, mine is about $20k more)

I'm a member and I get to vote too. But the dear leader and the politburo hasn't given us much to vote on, except the tail chasing pension expedition.

Since you east folk out so much smarter and well versed in all this show us the way.

By the way I've seen more organized poo fights in the monkey cage at the zoo than what usapa has shown us.

I've never heard of a group that was so bent on keeping another group from getting a pay raise, LOA84/93. They fought us in pay parity before the NIC as well. The company's best friends. Anger, bittereness comes out of every post.

First, out of seniority furlough took place in the first round. The TA is very specific as to what seniority rights, not only recalled, but also new hire pilots would have. West pilots, working on the day of the merger, were shown the door prior to new hires, and that is out of seniority. Also, east furloughed pilots with very specific rights, who took recall to the West, were transfered back east to avoid their furloughs. So out of seniority furloughing happened, and it happened with the blessing and even desire of that job theft union the east has. Just because you remain ignorant and/or sympathetic to the fact does not mean it did not happen.

The out of seniority furloughs was grieved, arbitrated and lost. So it must not have been out of seniority, at least according to the arbitrator. As I said a month ago, before being ripped apart by the normal West bullies, being furloughed, not much of this makes much difference to me. At worst, I'm looking at an extra 6 months furlough and delayed upgrade whether Nic or DOH. But what really is hard to understand is the anger. The main issues, appeal and the LOA84 arbitration will resolve themselves shortly.

I stay in touch with the furlough committee. They're honest about where things are. MDA won't affect me, unless it throws out the NIC. Even then, it will be just for a few months difference over my last 20 years.

I'm not addressing this to anyone, but to think about the possibilities. If the company really did send its heavy legal hitters to the appeal, even though they're not a party. Why? USAPA is in Appeals Court in Richmond 1st week of Feb on the RICO case. Why? Company wants Kirby proposal. Why? Phil C finally served subpoena at the end of the jetway. Why?

I'm not a conspiracy dot-connector, but I'll say this, 1st and 3rd whys above add up to one conclusion: the company needs this resolved and a contract in place for a potential sale. The Kirby language allows the company to reduce aircraft to 250, about 70 below the TA. That could be a reduction of over 800 pilots. With Nic in the contract, we know where most furloughs will come from.

I try not to be argumentative with my posts, but to some on this board, even a slight disagreement or different interpretation sets them off.

So What?! You're in the Angry FO club. You're a minor subset of the total group. Good Luck holding the 35,000 employees hostage with your singular, minority vote!

I rest my case.

Sincerely,

Dogandsuds

 

[Metroyet]

Yo Metroyet and HPDriver,

Do yourselves a favor and pull any east guy over in the airport and ask him how he will vote with the Nicolau award attached to a contract. Doing it while someone is in the jumpseat is BS. They will always tell you what you want to hear! Do you really think we care what the other 30,000 employees think of us and our right to vote. Guys like you have been the greatest selling point back east.........so that this travesty called the Nic doesn't ever happen. You guys have been frantic ever since the 9th audio hit the airwaves. That ripeness issue must have the desert judge wondering if he let it get to far. I still think he got a little ahead of himself. Premature Adjudication!

Good luck!

Hate

RIGHT. Until the pilots are ALLOWED to vote on something, all you're spewing is just BS conjecture. I know you guys don't care at all about this company or what happens to the other tens of thousands of employees, that's been established. Management however, does. As per normal, you've heard what you wanted too in the district recordings. Lee blabbed on and on and Andy Jacobs nailed the points like a sniper. Using common sense, does it compute that a case is Always too Early, and Always too Late at the same time? Are you encouraged by the Judge describing this as a "War of Attrition"? What about when he forcefully tells Seham, "Yes, but you had a process!". You're encouraged by the idea that Seham says it's okay to staple all the women? Was it the almighty Pause that helps you sleep at night? (he was looking up a document not standing there like a deer in the headlights as you imagine) BTW, footnote 4 obliterates your best sound bite. Perhaps you missed that.

Seham has been wrong every single step of the way...and as per norm, you're "supremely confident". Did you get your Stay of the Injunction? No. No you didn't. How many times has Seham asked for that? Encouraged by that are you?

Anyway, keep up the hyperbole and you're immovable resolve. Glad you're rich and don't need any paychecks, insurance, or other benefits. Some aren't are fortunate.

Merry Christmas.