US Pilots Labor Discussion 10/13-- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[traderjake]

Hiya Traitor,

You must be a hoot to fly with. I'm curious. What does it feel like to come to work knowing that you are despised by your coworkers? Are you embarrassed when your angry f/o takes a look in those hidden areas of the cockpit?

I'm an F/O and the Captain's I work with like flying with me because I know what I'm doing and I watch their backs, even the ones I get in USAPA and seniority arguments with. I don't sit there distracted and whine for four days about why I don't have a pay raise and a DOH contract.

You really think I want to be liked by the unethical and immoral majority or care what they think?

 

[Heretic]

I'm an F/O and the Captain's I work with like flying with me because I know what I'm doing and I watch their backs, even the ones I get in USAPA and seniority arguments with. I don't sit there distracted and whine for four days about why I don't have a pay raise and a DOH contract.

You really think I want to be liked by the unethical and immoral majority or care what they think.

Touche'.

I have removed my post as you are not holding a Captain's position.

 

[hp_fa]

All roads lead to Rome, all these cases will lead to the 9th Circuit

Yup.

It doesn't matter what happens at the district level.

Wrong, very wrong. The side that prevails at trial has an advantage in the appellate court because presumptions are made in favor of the winning side in the trail court. The losers must prove their issues in the appellate court, the winners do not have to prove anything, just defend that what happened was correct.

It's obvious what US Airway's motivation to filing the declaratory judgement complaint is, and it isn't for negotiating expediency. It really doesn't matter what Wake does or doesn't do, if it makes it to the 9th Circuit, the results will come out in favor of USAPA.

How do you figure that unless USAPA does something to resolve the seniority issue before the Addington plaintiffs' claims become unquestionably ripe?

This burns nothing but time and money, which isn't an issue for US Airways, and time actually saves them money. USAPA can afford it, the real losers again will be the Addington group, as its money out of pocket and money down the drain.

I understand what you are saying and why, but I believe that you are actually incorrect.

US Airways probably has some kind of merger or acquisition sitting in the wings, but the other party won't do anything until the pilot's labor issues are resolved as far as the last merger/acquisition is resolved. Even if there isn't an imminent merger the company can save some money by having a combined operation and that amount would offset at least part of the pay raise you will be seeking.

As far as the Addington plaintiffs are concerned they are out money for now, but they have the knowledge that they have won once before a jury and they also have all the prior discovery and testimony under oath. If USAPA witnesses testify differently they will be easy to impeach.

Who knows, maybe that is US Airways plan, to get Addington donors to waste another Million. It certainly will make someone taking another blind shot with a second DFR suit in the future think twice and the ability to raise money that much harder.

I try to stay out of the union politics and prefer to only discuss matters involving the court cases or the actual arbitration procedure and what evidence was presented in both places. However I will step away from that long enough to observe that the more USAPA squeezes the greater the resolve becomes of the West folks.

 

[traderjake]

There we have it folks. The one that thinks he is smarter than me is not a member and does nothing but complain about the "injustice" he sees. He had no say in the C18 case. He had no vote on the current president. He has no vote on the PIC referendum. He does not even try to have voice and to even try to change the union he says was formed to screw the west.

Next question. Which new union is going to save us and what are YOU doing to see that come about? Let us all know Trader, what are YOU doing except hiding behind your keyboard?

And please tell me you have the integrity to pay your required dues.

I'm smart enough to know I'm out numbered for the time being and that "you can't fix stupid" or unethical.

You and your USAPA brothers want to deny the West the NIC award.

Your support of the C18 does not negate that fact or make you one of the good guys.

I'm not going to help you do it or clean up the mess you made.

I do pay my dues.

Still waiting to hear how the West is also to blame for this mess.

 

[Richard]

Folks,

It's time to cool things down a bit. We have had to delete some posts and suspend some people tonight.

You need to observe the rules. Comment on POSTS, not POSTERS.

There is NOTHING you can say here which is going to affect the outcome of this dispute-the only thing you accomplish by some of the childish personal attacks here is to discredit your position and profession. Members of the PUBLIC read this board...try to remember that.

If you have a beef with an individual poster, take it to PM.

 

[mikey60]

I saw this quote in an article and it left me scratching my head. What does Moak think ALPA can do for US Airways? Is he positioning himself as the great mediator so when a representational election is held he can bring ALPA back to US? I highly doubt that's an option? I'm really not sure what his angle is.

Jetz

Any chance you remember where you saw that? Someone mentioned it to me several days ago.

 

[ROACLT]

Yup.



Wrong, very wrong. The side that prevails at trial has an advantage in the appellate court because presumptions are made in favor of the winning side in the trail court. The losers must prove their issues in the appellate court, the winners do not have to prove anything, just defend that what happened was correct.



How do you figure that unless USAPA does something to resolve the seniority issue before the Addington plaintiffs' claims become unquestionably ripe?



I understand what you are saying and why, but I believe that you are actually incorrect.

US Airways probably has some kind of merger or acquisition sitting in the wings, but the other party won't do anything until the pilot's labor issues are resolved as far as the last merger/acquisition is resolved. Even if there isn't an imminent merger the company can save some money by having a combined operation and that amount would offset at least part of the pay raise you will be seeking.

As far as the Addington plaintiffs are concerned they are out money for now, but they have the knowledge that they have won once before a jury and they also have all the prior discovery and testimony under oath. If USAPA witnesses testify differently they will be easy to impeach.



I try to stay out of the union politics and prefer to only discuss matters involving the court cases or the actual arbitration procedure and what evidence was presented in both places. However I will step away from that long enough to observe that the more USAPA squeezes the greater the resolve becomes of the West folks.

Except the 9th Circuit has already published an opinion that is precedent. It will govern the assured appeal, should this case end up in any other conclusion than dismissal. The first two requests in US Airways complaint have been asked and answered. The extreme scenario that the district court disregards this and issues some judgement that limits the company to only accept the Nicalou list as the union seniority proposal would be in direct conflict with the Appellate court's decision that clearly indicates that the union is free to bargain without judicial interference. So in essence you would have a district court issuing a judgement that requires the company to only accept a bargaining position that the by way of appellate decision, the union is not legally obligated to present in negotiation, agree to or ratify. It that were to occur, the case would be returned to the 9th Circuit and they would find that in conflict with their already published opinion. I'll give you that Judge Wake may do that as a judge can cloak any decision in some sliver of the law with only the penalty of having the decision overturned.

US Airways 3rd request for immunity doesn't stand a chance for passing the ripeness smell test. On the face of it, the whole complaint is legally absurd.

 

[hp_fa]

Except the 9th Circuit has already published an opinion that is precedent.

Yes, but it only set a precedent insofar as to state that the case was not ** yet ** ripe and that it would become unquestionably ripe after a ratified contract was in place (and assuming that the USAPA DOH/LOS was implemented despite the Nicolau award).

The extreme scenario that the district court disregards this and issues some judgement that limits the company to only accept the Nicalou list as the union seniority proposal would be in direct conflict with the Appellate court's decision that clearly indicates that the union is free to bargain without judicial interference.

Could you refer me to exactly where the 9th said that in the context that you contend is applicable? Remember, the company is both a party to the TA and has accepted the Nicolau list as the list as of 12/20/07.

So in essence you would have a district court issuing a judgement that requires the company to only accept a bargaining position that the by way of appellate decision, the union is not legally obligated to present in negotiation, agree to or ratify. It that were to occur, the case would be returned to the 9th Circuit and they would find that in conflict with their already published opinion. I'll give you that Judge Wake may do that as a judge can cloak any decision in some sliver of the law with only the penalty of having the decision overturned.

You continue to appear to think that the 9th did anything more than say the case was not ripe. The 9th will not apply its ruling in Addington v. USAPA in any appeal arising from a final judgment in the company's case. If the trial court rules that the Addington plaintiffs cross-claim against USAPA is ripe I expect USAPA to try and bring a special action appealing that ruling. I also expect it to fail. Why? Because of the change in circumstances that arises because of the ramifications of the nature of declaratory relief.

 

[RSVP767]

Even if there isn't an imminent merger the company can save some money by having a combined operation and that amount would offset at least part of the pay raise you will be seeking.

Let's see.....spend $122MIL (at a minimum) to save $10MIL??? Sounds like the US Airways I know and love! Problem is, they only do this when it will negatively impact the employee groups. They are in no hurry to improve anyone's lot in life here. Especially if it means increasing costs.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jetz

Any chance you remember where you saw that? Someone mentioned it to me several days ago.

Don't know if this is the same article but it sounds like the same quote:

The two pilot groups remain bitterly divided and continue to work under separate contracts. But Moak said he believes ALPA can play a role in reconciling them. "There's absolutely a fix," he said. "It will take all parties coming together with an open mind and addressing issues. ALPA can help with that."

Article - it's the last paragraph.

I'm like Jetz - since there are no longer "all parties" required to reach any agreement I have a hard time understanding how Moak is going to get them together to reach a resolution. It almost sounds like he's assuming that all the players, including separate MEC's - still exist.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

No.



Apples and oranges.

The 9th was referring to the possibility that the DFR might not occur. Examples that I can think of that would justify that thought would be a change in direction by USAPA, a change in leadership (and therefore policies) of USAPA or a change of bargaining agent. Any of those things ** could ** happen prior to the case becoming "unquestionably ripe" (the 9th's term) once a contract is ratified following DOH/LOS and not Nicolau.

So, the company could say that they reread the TA and have decided they cannot accept anything but the Nic in section 22. and the Addington would still be ripe? I can see how you can reach the conclusion that the union's failure to represent the interests of the west pilots was still there, but in that case how are they damaged? Maybe I could see that if section 22 was the only section open, and it could be proved that USAPA delayed the entire contract, but I don't believe that is true and would be near, if not completely, impossible to prove.

I've always admitted that I don't know much about law,and it's been a while since I've read the 9ths ruling, but I thought they said there were many possibilities that would make the west pilots worst fears not come true and that's why it wasn't ripe. It seems to me that the company's actions may be one of those reasons, but maybe not.

Thanks for your input here.

 

[Pi brat]

I'm smart enough to know I'm out numbered for the time being and that "you can't fix stupid" or unethical.

You and your USAPA brothers want to deny the West the NIC award.

Your support of the C18 does not negate that fact or make you one of the good guys.

I'm not going to help you do it or clean up the mess you made.

I do pay my dues.

Still waiting to hear how the West is also to blame for this mess.

You don't have a clue about what I have or haven't done. You have taken a cowardly stance. It's easy to say there is nothing you can do and stand back and throw stones, isn't it? Have you always paid your dues, from day one and in whole? Tell the truth.

Both sides are to blame for this mess because neither side put forth a proposal during negotiations that was near enough for the other side to really negotiate.

Adios to all and to all a good night.

 

[jetjok1]

I saw this quote in an article and it left me scratching my head. What does Moak think ALPA can do for US Airways? Is he positioning himself as the great mediator so when a representational election is held he can bring ALPA back to US? I highly doubt that's an option? I'm really not sure what his angle is.

Hey 76, how's the United/Continental merger going? a little birdie tells me not so well.

 

[hp_fa]

So, the company could say that they reread the TA and have decided they cannot accept anything but the Nic in section 22. and the Addington would still be ripe?

The nature of declaratory judgment would preclude the company from making any such decision. Remember, the company is going to the court asking for help because it anticipates that it needs helps or, forget about anticipates, and just say the company needs help now. The nature of the help is that the company is in a legal bind and needs to take action, but if it takes any action it exposes itself to a lawsuit. Therefore Judge please tell us how we must proceed to avoid springing a mousetrap of potential litigation.

Because the company is asking the court to potentially take action which could potentially fully and with finality end their rights to their arbitrated result in the merger of America West and US Airways, the West pilots claims against the East may have been ripened because of the nature of the potential remedy to be provided to the company.

Did this help at all? If not let me know and I will try again tomorrow, and after some sleep.

 

[A320 Driver]

Don't know if this is the same article but it sounds like the same quote:

The two pilot groups remain bitterly divided and continue to work under separate contracts. But Moak said he believes ALPA can play a role in reconciling them. "There's absolutely a fix," he said. "It will take all parties coming together with an open mind and addressing issues. ALPA can help with that."

Article - it's the last paragraph.

I'm like Jetz - since there are no longer "all parties" required to reach any agreement I have a hard time understanding how Moak is going to get them together to reach a resolution. It almost sounds like he's assuming that all the players, including separate MEC's - still exist.

Jim

Where there is a will...

There are three camps here. The DOH or nothing camp. The NIC or nothing camp. And a camp that wants a solution and believes there is one if the right people took the lead. I'd vote for ALPA in a New York minute if I thought their leadership had the courage to lead. It was a lack of leadership that got us here in the first place. Two ALPA carriers shouldn't have to go to an outside third party to settle their differences. They are forced to do that when their national union takes a hands off approach to seniority integration.


My OPINION Jim...

Driver B)