US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/13- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[767intl]

Black Swan,
Where have you been? You just "wrecked" them! The judge took them as far as he could. They thought we would cave.........wrong! Remember Granath telling the judge about the NMB lawyers parachuting into his court. That was a classic!
Looking forward to 2010
9th/LOA93 pay restoration/MDA
Hate

Hate and BS (Balck Swan),

They don't know when they've been wrecked. LOA93 pay restoration is looking better than ever. We got great docs from notes, proposals, counter-proposals (over 20 of them). The negotiations took almost 2 months. In the end, the numbers were almost the same except for an additional one year delay. The notes speak for themselves a lot better than the company putting someone up on the stand to say whatever they need said. But they'll try, to the point of bringing back some witnesses no longer working here. ALPA's watching this, too. If somehow we lose, ALPA might as well chuck out Section 40 (concessionary negotiations) from their by-laws. It will never be used again. Either Parker didn't konw about this little time-bomb or he thought he'd have a single contract wrapped up before 2010. Funny thing is, if Kirby had passed before the NIC came out, we'd have been near our LOA93 pay rates. This whole thing is full of its ironies.

MDA? Could be Nicolau's excuse to say: "I wrote what?"

9th? Ripeness, Hate. Ripeness!

History says otherwise.

Not on this side of the Mississippi, luvn. We don't leave our wounded on the battlefield.

Of course its true. With court backing, anything is possible.

Even a reversal of Addington by the 9th.

 

[HPDriver]

This is absolutely not true.

Of course its true.

Good example is 1113 of the bankruptcy code.

With court backing, anything is possible.

 

[Black Swan]

I fear treading to far into this swamp of unconnected ramblings. But just to correct the first mistakes.

The AFA did not negotiate their seniority. They followed their C&BL’s. The AFA merger policy is an outcome based deal. DOH. There was no negotiation. If you would like to join the AFA feel free and you can have what ever your DOH would be.

The dispatchers went to negotiations but failed. They then went to mediation and finally arbitration. So just like us a third party decided how to integrate. So again the dispatchers did not negotiate their seniority they arbitrated it.

For the rest of the trash I will leave where I found it, in a pile. Someone else can waste their time with that.

Let me help you out of the swamp. If you still work here as a pilot, you belong to USAPA- no matter what you say about it. I work here, and I DON'T work under a NICOLAU LIST. Case closed as to who is dealing with reality friend.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The Kirby won’t do it, Flyer even if the 9th is lost. A large number of those pilots, especially those in their late 50s, won’t vote for a NIC contract under any circumstances. With Kirby/NIC, the company can (and so far that has meant will) drop a/c numbers down to as low as 250. With NIC seniority placement, the downgrades to FO and smaller equipment pay differential would hit the East to the point that $20-30K would be peanuts. Add PBS, increased line caps, slower vacation parity, you got a lot of reasons East C/Os will vote against anything close to the company’s current offer. For FOs it’s even worse. Over 1000 furloughs would result with a fully implemented Kirby/NIC if the company used all the provisions. For all but the top 483 COs, everyone else on the East loses disproportionately more (MUCH more) and ends up in a potentially disproportionally worse situation than any West pilot under Kirby/NIC. We all know it. The top 483 know it. They’ve been given an extra 5 years earning potential, almost $1million in pay and benefits. They won’t abandon the rest of us. You know anyone who says otherwise, feel fre to PM me. Once again, your typical West prognostitations/speculations are wishful thinking at best, pure XXX at worst.

East prognostications, west prognostications - both are meaningless until this goes to a vote. Of course if USAPA's supporters are so very confident on how the pilot vote will come out with the NIC included, why all of the delays, legal fees, appeals to the circuit court and being forced to operate under a federal injunction for negotiating in bad faith? Why not roll up your sleeves and put out a TA and see how the voting goes? Show Wake that USAPA plans to fairly represent the west class by negotiating in good faith and put as many TAs out there as possible to fully and finally demonstrate that this pilot group will not vote for the NIC. If USAPA had done that from the beginning the company would have responded by earnestly negotiating to get the CBA done and Wake would have had no grounds to place an injunction on USAPA. Your words say the pilots would vote no, but USAPA’s actions say that they fear a vote on a TA/NIC more than anything else. Actions speak louder than words.

 

[Black Swan]

I fear treading to far into this swamp of unconnected ramblings. But just to correct the first mistakes.

The AFA did not negotiate their seniority. They followed their C&BL’s. The AFA merger policy is an outcome based deal. DOH. There was no negotiation. If you would like to join the AFA feel free and you can have what ever your DOH would be.

The dispatchers went to negotiations but failed. They then went to mediation and finally arbitration. So just like us a third party decided how to integrate. So again the dispatchers did not negotiate their seniority they arbitrated it.

For the rest of the trash I will leave where I found it, in a pile. Someone else can waste their time with that.

Fellow USAPA members, and you are. I really don't care about any other group. Seniority as far as pilots are concerned- is NEGOTIATED. Therefore, start negotiating. So far, the only reality for you is you ARE a USAPA member, and membership does have its' benefits!

 

[700UW]

Wasn’t the airbus arbitration negotiated to it’s current exists

The case was arbitrated, the IAM won, then US filed bankruptcy and the company filed an emergency motion in court to continue the outsourcing and then abrogated our contract which then changed the scope language in the final offer, the arbitration was on current language in the CBA at the time, not the new language proffered in the final offer.

Your confusing CBA arbitration and internal union arbitration.

 

[HPDriver]

Bottom line. After all the smoke clears, you are going to discover one final thing. Seniority is NEGOTIATED. The AFA, Dispatchers, etc. went DOH. How did it happen? Negotiations..Had the Nic been signed under ALPA, you would be victorious. You NEVER got a signed T/A under ALPA. Game over. I don't care what your desert judge thinks, he is going to be educated in overstepping his bounds.He obviously does not understand his bounds in ruling in union matters. He thought about imposing the Nic, but finally listened to educated heads about sticking his head into something he had no clue about. Typical of a BUSH appointee. Crush unions. Had ALPA prevailed, you would get your Nicolau. You have a NEW bargaining agent. Even Doug told you in his town hall meetings. It is a closed shop, it is called USAPA.Fail to pay your dues, you are terminated. That is about the most concrete evidence you could ever get, yet it fails to sink in. You HAVE to join, or you hit the bricks.There has been NOTHING like this told to the EAST. You failed to tag home base in your game. It all started over with a new agent. The concrete was never poured. I bet the game on the 9th, and have a backup plan if it does not go that way. Either way, you are in for a serious battle to the end! There is no despair in the East. We are not struggling under LOA 93. We are set, and ready to rumble. We don't make house payments on a castle that is worth half of what we pay monthly, and most likely will never run up without loose mortgage money. That is not happening again in our lifetime.You can go on and on about LOA 93. Every day I read about the foreclosures in PHX and LAS. You brought up the hardship. Our reality is LOA 93. We will deal with it fine. You deal with your sub prime reality. Good luck to you too.

Thanks for your sub prime concerns, but most of us are doing just fine.

As for Nic, I go to sleep every night without a worry in the world. It's ironic that bringing in USAPA was the best thing that ever happened to the west in that it eliminated any separate representation the west had from the east. For USAPA to renegotiate the Nic would be discriminatory against the west pilot group and a failure in the duty of fair representation.

But even that scenario isn't going to happen as there is an injunction in place against USAPA to do that very thing. You won't see the company touch Nic with a 10 foot pole - ever.

No, the question is not (and hasn't been for quite a while now) whether or not Nic will be implemented, the question is when.

And that is just around the corner.

 

[OTTER574]

Hate and BS (Black Swan),

They don't know when they've been wrecked. LOA93 pay restoration is looking better than ever. We got great docs from notes, proposals, counter-proposals (over 20 of them). The negotiations took almost 2 months. In the end, the numbers were almost the same except for an additional one year delay, which saved the company more money. The notes speak for themselves a lot better than the company putting someone up on the stand to say whatever they need said. But they'll try, to the point of brining back some witnesses no longer working here. ALPA's watching this, too. If somehow we lose, ALPA might as well chuck out Section 40 (concessionary negotiations) from their by-laws. It will never be used again.

MDA? Could be Nicolau's excuse to say: "I wrote what?"

9th? Ripeness, Hate! Ripeness!

Please read the FINDINGS OF FACT in the Addington case about ripeness from the HONORABLE FEDERAL DISTRICT JUDGE NEIL V WAKE. Ripeness issue is minor in an INJUNCTION case when damages are done and continually proceeding by the defendant.

 

[Black Swan]

East prognostications, west prognostications - both are meaningless until this goes to a vote. Of course if USAPA's supporters are so very confident on how the pilot vote will come out with the NIC included, why all of the delays, legal fees, appeals to the circuit court and being forced to operate under a federal injunction for negotiating in bad faith? Why not roll up your sleeves and put out a TA and see how the voting goes? Show Wake that USAPA plans to fairly represent the west class by negotiating in good faith and put as many TAs out there as possible to fully and finally demonstrate that this pilot group will not vote for the NIC. If USAPA had done that from the beginning the company would have responded by earnestly negotiating to get the CBA done and Wake would have had no grounds to place an injunction on USAPA. Your words say the pilots would vote no, but USAPA’s actions say that they fear a vote on a TA/NIC more than anything else. Actions speak louder than words.

Fellow USAPA members-You are right Calloway, it takes a vote, not all the other things HP and LUVN have dreamed up. It takes a T/A and a vote, not a judge. The desert judge is going to be remanded for his lack of NMB knowledge.

 

[HPDriver]

Yeah, not withstanding all the whining we do on the boards, the crew rooms are amazingly different (even jovial) and full of motivated folks who are doing good work day in and day out. I don't see folks waling around in tatters begging for someone to please accept their white flag surrender.

But do you know the conversations that go on at home around the kitchen table? Nope.

How about that college tuition that's coming due? Private schools? Piano lessons? Dance classes?

Wives have a greater influence at home and its there where the decisions are made - not on the flight line.

 

[767intl]

East prognostications, west prognostications - both are meaningless until this goes to a vote. Of course if USAPA's supporters are so very confident on how the pilot vote will come out with the NIC included, why all of the delays, legal fees, appeals to the circuit court and being forced to operate under a federal injunction for negotiating in bad faith? Why not roll up your sleeves and put out a TA and see how the voting goes? Show Wake that USAPA plans to fairly represent the west class by negotiating in good faith and put as many TAs out there as possible to fully and finally demonstrate that this pilot group will not vote for the NIC. If USAPA had done that from the beginning the company would have responded by earnestly negotiating to get the CBA done and Wake would have had no grounds to place an injunction on USAPA. Your words say the pilots would vote no, but USAPA’s actions say that they fear a vote on a TA/NIC more than anything else. Actions speak louder than words.

Then by all means, have your BPRs put in resolution to take the Kirby (as modified by the company of late, but INCLUDING the NIC) and put it out for a vote. I'll ask my BPRs to support you. Let's get the vote rolling now. We could have it out to the members in less than 60 days, I'm sure. Golf, no matter how much you wish otherwise, the Kirby is the best we're going to get out of the company for a long time. But with no resolution at a BPR meeting, we'll never get a vote.

 

[HPDriver]

Even a reversal of Addington by the 9th.

Possible? Yep.

Probable? Nope.

 

[Hate2fly]

Fellow USAPA members-You are right Calloway, it takes a vote, not all the other things HP and LUVN have dreamed up. It takes a T/A and a vote, not a judge. The desert judge is going to be remanded for his lack of NMB knowledge.

Swan,

I think the westies are starting to levitate!

I think he missed law school the day they went over the RLA.

Hate

 

[Hate2fly]

But do you know the conversations that go on at home around the kitchen table? Nope.

How about that college tuition that's coming due? Private schools? Piano lessons? Dance classes?

Wives have a greater influence at home and its there where the decisions are made - not on the flight line.

Driver,

We are very patient..........with age comes patience! Our attrition is very important to us.

Hate

 

[HPDriver]

Driver,

We are very patient..........with age comes patience! Our attrition is very important to us.

Hate

"We" is a number that is decreasing every day. You yourself may be patient, by I can guarantee you others over there don't agree.

Trusting your fellow east pilots to stand with you is a very scary thing. As I've said before, those kitchen table conversations have more influence on a pilot than anything coming out of USAPA.

And not too many are willing to wait an extra 2.5 years to start seeing that attrition.