US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/13- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[OTTER574]

Do you understand the process?

By law the company and the union have to remain status quo, the company cannot sign a side letter without the union agreeing.

Must be the so called proposal/final and binding thing again lee seham, steve bradford and mike cleary are always spouting off about.

Hope they have better legal council in the up and coming damages trial. BTW, bradford's deposition will be a great asset to the west class action litigation against the federal law breaking usapa led by lee seham.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

This isn't the issue before the 9th circuit anyway, but why don't you cite a case where a party was excused from a legally binding agreement because they changed the agent who represented them when the agreement was made?

Does this not happen anytime a new CBA is ratified. i.e. the old agreement is no longer valid?

Additionally, does Wakes ruling mean that no CBA in the future could ever change Section 24?

 

[Black Swan]

Must be the so called proposal/final and binding thing again lee seham, steve bradford and mike cleary are always spouting off about.

Hope they have better legal council in the up and coming damages trial. BTW, bradford's deposition will be a great asset to the west class action litigation against the federal law breaking usapa led by lee seham.

Bottom line. After all the smoke clears, you are going to discover one final thing. Seniority is NEGOTIATED. The AFA, Dispatchers, etc. went DOH. How did it happen? Negotiations..Had the Nic been signed under ALPA, you would be victorious. You NEVER got a signed T/A under ALPA. Game over. I don't care what your desert judge thinks, he is going to be educated in overstepping his bounds.He obviously does not understand his bounds in ruling in union matters. He thought about imposing the Nic, but finally listened to educated heads about sticking his head into something he had no clue about. Typical of a BUSH appointee. Crush unions. Had ALPA prevailed, you would get your Nicolau. You have a NEW bargaining agent. Even Doug told you in his town hall meetings. It is a closed shop, it is called USAPA.Fail to pay your dues, you are terminated. That is about the most concrete evidence you could ever get, yet it fails to sink in. You HAVE to join, or you hit the bricks.There has been NOTHING like this told to the EAST. You failed to tag home base in your game. It all started over with a new agent. The concrete was never poured. I bet the game on the 9th, and have a backup plan if it does not go that way. Either way, you are in for a serious battle to the end! There is no despair in the East. We are not struggling under LOA 93. We are set, and ready to rumble. We don't make house payments on a castle that is worth half of what we pay monthly, and most likely will never run up without loose mortgage money. That is not happening again in our lifetime.You can go on and on about LOA 93. Every day I read about the foreclosures in PHX and LAS. You brought up the hardship. Our reality is LOA 93. We will deal with it fine. You deal with your sub prime reality. Good luck to you too.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Personally I think you're right, at least the part about USAPA being able to negotiate a new TA - The TA is nothing more than a side letter to both the East and West contracts. Of course, there are two problems - the company would have to agree (at the risk of being included in a subsequent suit) and it would have resulted in the DFR suit anyway (negotiating for a DOH integration was what triggered the suit).

So while it could have been attempted, I can't see it changing anything.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Bottom line. After all the smoke clears, you are going to discover one final thing. Seniority is NEGOTIATED. The AFA, Dispatchers, etc. went DOH. How did it happen? Negotiations..Had the Nic been signed under ALPA, you would be victorious. You NEVER got a signed T/A under ALPA. Game over. I don't care what your desert judge thinks, he is going to be educated in overstepping his bounds.He obviously does not understand his bounds in ruling in union matters. He thought about imposing the Nic, but finally listened to educated heads about sticking his head into something he had no clue about. Typical of a BUSH appointee. Crush unions. Had ALPA prevailed, you would get your Nicolau. You have a NEW bargaining agent. Even Doug told you in his town hall meetings. It is a closed shop, it is called USAPA.Fail to pay your dues, you are terminated. That is about the most concrete evidence you could ever get, yet it fails to sink in. You HAVE to join, or you hit the bricks.There has been NOTHING like this told to the EAST. You failed to tag home base in your game. It all started over with a new agent. The concrete was never poured. I bet the game on the 9th, and have a backup plan if it does not go that way. Either way, you are in for a serious battle to the end! There is no despair in the East. We are not struggling under LOA 93. We are set, and ready to rumble. We don't make house payments on a castle that is worth half of what we pay monthly, and most likely will never run up without loose mortgage money. That is not happening again in our lifetime.You can go on and on about LOA 93. Every day I read about the foreclosures in PHX and LAS. You brought up the hardship. Our reality is LOA 93. We will deal with it fine. You deal with your sub prime reality. Good luck to you too.

I fear treading to far into this swamp of unconnected ramblings. But just to correct the first mistakes.

The AFA did not negotiate their seniority. They followed their C&BL’s. The AFA merger policy is an outcome based deal. DOH. There was no negotiation. If you would like to join the AFA feel free and you can have what ever your DOH would be.

The dispatchers went to negotiations but failed. They then went to mediation and finally arbitration. So just like us a third party decided how to integrate. So again the dispatchers did not negotiate their seniority they arbitrated it.

For the rest of the trash I will leave where I found it, in a pile. Someone else can waste their time with that.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Does this not happen anytime a new CBA is ratified. i.e. the old agreement is no longer valid?

Additionally, does Wakes ruling mean that no CBA in the future could ever change Section 24?

On your first question, changing the agent who represents the party doesn't change the agreements made by the party. USAPA can enter into agreements which only survive as long as USAPA survives, leasing property or automobiles for example. USAPA can enter into these agreements as an organization regardless of their acting as an agent for any other party (US pilots, UA pilots, no pilots at all). However, the agreements they enter into on behalf of the parties that they are elected to represent are binding on the represented party (pilots in this case), not necessarily the agent who represents them now or in the future.

Your second question is an excellent one. Until the NIC is in place under a new CBA, the federal injunction will be in force. After a CBA is ratified and the NIC seniority list is established, USAPA may have the right to change how they place members on the seniority list (the transition is complete at that point so the TA and the NIC award would sunset), but the company would still have to agree to any changes during negotiations. Until those events happen, NIC is the only go-forward seniority list. Of course decertification of the CBA would render all collective pilot agreements unenforceable since the pilots would no longer be acting as a collective group (a lose interpretation of the current situation I fully admit).

 

[john john]

I guess you dont understand binding arbitration, they cant negotiate it away.

Wasn’t the airbus arbitration negotiated to it’s current exists

 

[OTTER574]

Bottom line. After all the smoke clears, you are going to discover one final thing. Seniority is NEGOTIATED. The AFA, Dispatchers, etc. went DOH. How did it happen? Negotiations..Had the Nic been signed under ALPA, you would be victorious. You NEVER got a signed T/A under ALPA. Game over. I don't care what your desert judge thinks, he is going to be educated in overstepping his bounds.He obviously does not understand his bounds in ruling in union matters. He thought about imposing the Nic, but finally listened to educated heads about sticking his head into something he had no clue about. Typical of a BUSH appointee. Crush unions. Had ALPA prevailed, you would get your Nicolau. You have a NEW bargaining agent. Even Doug told you in his town hall meetings. It is a closed shop, it is called USAPA.Fail to pay your dues, you are terminated. That is about the most concrete evidence you could ever get, yet it fails to sink in. You HAVE to join, or you hit the bricks.There has been NOTHING like this told to the EAST. You failed to tag home base in your game. It all started over with a new agent. The concrete was never poured. I bet the game on the 9th, and have a backup plan if it does not go that way. Either way, you are in for a serious battle to the end! There is no despair in the East. We are not struggling under LOA 93. We are set, and ready to rumble. We don't make house payments on a castle that is worth half of what we pay monthly, and most likely will never run up without loose mortgage money. That is not happening again in our lifetime.You can go on and on about LOA 93. Every day I read about the foreclosures in PHX and LAS. You brought up the hardship. Our reality is LOA 93. We will deal with it fine. You deal with your sub prime reality. Good luck to you too.

You and I agreed to a process. Final and binding is LEGAL in this country, just ask my wife who works for the US federal government in the EEOC.

So those east pilot pension loss payment's from the company was negotiated under who (alpa) and what? Was that a proposal or just what slick?

BTW, since most commute in this industry, where I live has nothing to do with this sport.

 

[cleardirect]

This is one of the strangest responses I have ever heard. I certainly would not admit listening to her........

I listen to a lot of different music. It is the sign of an open mind and cultural education.

But I also notice the failure to address the point of my post. What about the ripeness issues in the other litigation?

Any response to that? Anyone?

 

[Phoenix]

We are not struggling under LOA 93. We are set, and ready to rumble. ...

Yeah, not withstanding all the whining we do on the boards, the crew rooms are amazingly different (even jovial) and full of motivated folks who are doing good work day in and day out. I don't see folks waling around in tatters begging for someone to please accept their white flag surrender.

 

[Phoenix]

This is one of the strangest responses I have ever heard. I certainly would not admit listening to her........

she is a bit disturbed, probably a nice enough chick, but some of her songs have dark disturbing lyrics nonetheless.

 

[767intl]

I usually don't read all this "nic" disaster diatribe but that is very true. Be a moot point if the pensions came back EJECT!

Beach, you're either getting better looking or I've been on the road too long! Pensions coming back? Probably not. But if there was criminal actions going on, it needs to be exposed and I will continue to pay assessments to expose it. The pension outcome will have nothing to do with whether there is ever a NIC contract. On the last thread, we got to read more of the West's replies. The pattern is clear, read through each and every post, look for one word, one phrase that they can pounce on. Who cares what the context was. As I wrote, On company, "good faith," the May 2007 Kirby proposal isn't even on the table any more. Once we got back to negotiating, they watered down the offer with restrictions and other changes. Now we're down to NMB mediation once or twice a month due to the company's "availability." Any question about whose bargaining in "good faith?"

Flip reply,

767intl,

NMB mediation has not started. What you are referencing is the Private mediation provided for in the TA. Application for the NMB process has happened. Later this month the Private mediator will interview with the NMB. As usapa has reopened every section, do you think they will ask her just who is Negotiating in good faith.
Clearly you are not following very closely, maybe you should call a rep.
Flip

Wow, Flip, then that’s even worse than I thought! Talk about bad faith! But your reply is just one more example of West pilots taking one section of a post, out of context, and thinking you can score gotcha points. Those posts aren't scoring any points back here. The 9th will decide if we DFRed you, nothing else. The one or two times a month was/is the company’s position, whether we’re actually doing it now or not. That's where we're now, whether it's the NMB or a private mediator, and it looks like that's where we are in the future, too.

Westcoast flyer:

You are absolutely right. Once this ruling from the 9th Circuit is upheld; there will be a change of direction by many of the East pilots, as well as West pilots. There is a large number of pilots (Captains and F/O's) that are in their late 50's or early 60's. Don't you think most of them are tired of leaving 20 to 30K per year on the table, along with crappy work rules, vacation, etc., with no end in sight? If a decent contract is negotiated, which by law has to include the Nic, these guys will vote for it, to improve their lifestyle and pay for the few years they have remaining. These guy are the quiet ones that you don't see wasting their time and emotional energy fighting on web boards.

The Kirby won’t do it, Flyer even if the 9th is lost. A large number of those pilots, especially those in their late 50s, won’t vote for a NIC contract under any circumstances. With Kirby/NIC, the company can (and so far that has meant will) drop a/c numbers down to as low as 250. With NIC seniority placement, the downgrades to FO and smaller equipment pay differential would hit the East to the point that $20-30K would be peanuts. Add PBS, increased line caps, slower vacation parity, you got a lot of reasons East C/Os will vote against anything close to the company’s current offer. For FOs it’s even worse. Over 1000 furloughs would result with a fully implemented Kirby/NIC if the company used all the provisions. For all but the top 483 COs, everyone else on the East loses disproportionately more (MUCH more) and ends up in a potentially disproportionally worse situation than any West pilot under Kirby/NIC. We all know it. The top 483 know it. They’ve been given an extra 5 years earning potential, almost $1million in pay and benefits. They won’t abandon the rest of us. You know anyone who says otherwise, feel fre to PM me. Once again, your typical West prognostitations/speculations are wishful thinking at best, pure XXX at worst.

 

[CallawayGolf]

But I also notice the failure to address the point of my post. What about the ripeness issues in the other litigation?

Any response to that? Anyone?

Do tell ...

 

[Hate2fly]

Bottom line. After all the smoke clears, you are going to discover one final thing. Seniority is NEGOTIATED. The AFA, Dispatchers, etc. went DOH. How did it happen? Negotiations..Had the Nic been signed under ALPA, you would be victorious. You NEVER got a signed T/A under ALPA. Game over. I don't care what your desert judge thinks, he is going to be educated in overstepping his bounds.He obviously does not understand his bounds in ruling in union matters. He thought about imposing the Nic, but finally listened to educated heads about sticking his head into something he had no clue about. Typical of a BUSH appointee. Crush unions. Had ALPA prevailed, you would get your Nicolau. You have a NEW bargaining agent. Even Doug told you in his town hall meetings. It is a closed shop, it is called USAPA.Fail to pay your dues, you are terminated. That is about the most concrete evidence you could ever get, yet it fails to sink in. You HAVE to join, or you hit the bricks.There has been NOTHING like this told to the EAST. You failed to tag home base in your game. It all started over with a new agent. The concrete was never poured. I bet the game on the 9th, and have a backup plan if it does not go that way. Either way, you are in for a serious battle to the end! There is no despair in the East. We are not struggling under LOA 93. We are set, and ready to rumble. We don't make house payments on a castle that is worth half of what we pay monthly, and most likely will never run up without loose mortgage money. That is not happening again in our lifetime.You can go on and on about LOA 93. Every day I read about the foreclosures in PHX and LAS. You brought up the hardship. Our reality is LOA 93. We will deal with it fine. You deal with your sub prime reality. Good luck to you too.

Black Swan,

Where have you been? You just "wrecked" them! The judge took them as far as he could. They thought we would cave.........wrong! Remember Granath telling the judge about the NMB lawyers parachuting into his court. That was a classic!

Looking forward to 2010

9th/LOA93 pay restoration/MDA

Hate

 

[luvn737s]

They’ve been given an extra 5 years earning potential, almost $1million in pay and benefits. They won’t abandon the rest of us.

History says otherwise.