US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/13- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[Flippin43]

I agree with NYCbus.

The Kirby proposal will definitely get a NO vote from this west pilot.

That three percent gain in pay was more than covered by concessions in other sections of the proposal. Kirby is a net loss for anyone under the west contract.

I didn't say the Kirby would pass. To be more clear, if there is enough money in a contract offer. Senior east guys will vote for it without a second thought about the Nicolau. This is the way its done over at AAA and will be no different now at LCC. We all know how they feel about doing things the way they have always done them.

Flip

 

[N924PS]

You're dreaming.

When you wake up you will find you are wrong.

No, YOU'RE dreaming.

While you exist in your "Wide Body World" with many senior pilots in what remains of the "517", there are plenty of pilots in that number flying the little 320 and even the 737. At a buck-twenty-five an hour.

Some of them supported USAPA from day one because they were mad at ALPA for the loss of the pension without a vote and wanted to believe that eliminating ALPA might just also eliminate the Nicolau Award.

If USAPA loses at the 9th Court, I can assure you, those pilots will believe they have supported the "Nicolau Cause" as much as humanly possible and want to move on to a new and better contract.

There exists a crack in the dike, and an unfavorable ruling in San Francisco will open the floodgates.

 

[nycbusdriver]

No, he's right.

When you decide to open your eyes to reality you will find you've been sold out by your brethren (again).

So, now you are telling me, my fellow WB captains and my colleague NB captains what we think?

What incredible gall! And ignorance of the fact.

 

[nycbusdriver]

No, YOU'RE dreaming.

While you exist in your "Wide Body World" with many senior pilots in what remains of the "517", there are plenty of pilots in that number flying the little 320 and even the 737. At a buck-twenty-five an hour.

Some of them supported USAPA from day one because they were mad at ALPA for the loss of the pension without a vote and wanted to believe that eliminating ALPA might just also eliminate the Nicolau Award.

If USAPA loses at the 9th Court, I can assure you, those pilots will believe they have supported the "Nicolau Cause" as much as humanly possible and want to move on to a new and better contract.

There exists a crack in the dike, and an unfavorable ruling in San Francisco will open the floodgates.

You've been hanging out with CLT pants-wetters too long. It doesn't read that way in PHL.

 

[N924PS]

So, now you are telling me, my fellow WB captains and my colleague NB captains what we think?

What incredible gall! And ignorance of the fact.

Come out of the International Crew Room more often. There's a big wide world out there on the other side of the radome.

 

[traderjake]

You're dreaming.

When you wake up you will find you are wrong.

The majority of Captains I fly with say it's time to get paid.

We'll find out who's wrong when there's a vote.

 

[Flippin43]

What does the LPGA have to do with this?

Not gonna use you finger on that one either? The dike that is.


Flip

 

[Flippin43]

So, now you are telling me, my fellow WB captains and my colleague NB captains what we think?

What incredible gall! And ignorance of the fact.

I think one of them did say something about the incredible gall of these junior F/O's blocking my raise. I think it was the one that was north of #200

Its you guys who have always done it this way and now you find it "incredible" when we point it out to you.


Flip

 

[bigbusdrvr]

Federal courts tend to be tacky when their instructions are ignored. Is that really what any of you want? Thanks to the RLA you have to continue working under your old contracts until a new one is approved. Can you all afford to retire under your current contract for the sake of principle? Especially for a principle that a Federal court has said does not apply?
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Actually, you do have a dog in this fight. ( if you work under a CBA, ) if we win our arbitration of language, only in america does an expiration date have to be arbitrated, reminds me of " what the definitation of Is Is")
Then we will be glad to remain under our current contract rates are sufficient. we'll be gone before a raise will be needed.

The corporation can thank the forsightedness of mr nic for this debacle.....unfortunately for the shareholders and the hopeful windfallers, nobody contemplated the contracted loa to expire without a replacement loball contract....

There bad,........

So for anyone working under a CBA, you must wish for management to honor these contracts, especially if an arbitrator rules upon the language. for your own benefit....

 

[EastUS]

No, YOU'RE dreaming.

There exists a crack in the dike, and an unfavorable ruling in San Francisco will open the floodgates.

From your earlier post: "Probably a moot point as the East seems happy to slog on under LOA 93 no matter what, and the company is not motivated to cut a deal that might actually pass. Even with the Nic."

So...which is it?....a "crack in the dike"?....or "Probably a moot point?" As one that's not any master of speaking out of both sides of my mouth myself....you'll perhaps forgive me a bit of confusion here?

 

[Metroyet]

Federal courts tend to be tacky when their instructions are ignored. Is that really what any of you want? Thanks to the RLA you have to continue working under your old contracts until a new one is approved. Can you all afford to retire under your current contract for the sake of principle? Especially for a principle that a Federal court has said does not apply?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, you do have a dog in this fight. ( if you work under a CBA, ) if we win our arbitration of language, only in america does an expiration date have to be arbitrated, reminds me of " what the definitation of Is Is")
Then we will be glad to remain under our current contract rates are sufficient. we'll be gone before a raise will be needed.

The corporation can thank the forsightedness of mr nic for this debacle.....unfortunately for the shareholders and the hopeful windfallers, nobody contemplated the contracted loa to expire without a replacement loball contract....

There bad,........

So for anyone working under a CBA, you must wish for management to honor these contracts, especially if an arbitrator rules upon the language. for your own benefit....

What the Hell, exactly, is an "arbitration of language"? Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you. My understanding of your post is this: You think that your expiration of LOA 93 rates is in black and white...cut and dried,...obvious. In fact, you are likening it to waggle finger Clinton's famous deposition where in he couldn't define what the definition of "is" .......is. So obviously clear that you're at a loss as to describe why anybody has any hesitation what-so-ever at recognizing your point of view because the printed word of your contract is so painfully clear?

And Yet...

You flip 180 degrees when you explain your position on the Nic. How much credibility does one garner from such situational ethics? Why can't you see what is staring you in the face? Why do you think nobody else can see it? You're making a statement equivalent to: "If A = B, and B=C, than C must = FU? " You actually think that rationally thinking human beings can't see the flaw in your logic? This has ZERO to do with the CBA. ALPA, (for once) followed the letter of the law. Who exactly is the "windfaller" in all of this? WTF is "there bad" mean? Are you admonishing a dog for misbehaving?...i.e. THERE!...BAD!!!...HERE GOOD!!!

 

[cubfan]

Sorry Cubfan I guess I am missing your point. Do/did you have access to the Kirby where it shows the breakdown on A/C, Seat etc.? I don't recall ever seeing that, just percentages...

Tiger,
I'm just taking Kirby on his word, parity plus 3%, I have not seen the additional 10% some speak of. The 75/76, and 330 are highest paying equipment types, no parity just 3%. Some think that a 18% increase group 2 east would be across the board for group 1, as things stand now thats not true. Thats all I'm saying.

 

[Bear96]

Actually, you do have a dog in this fight. ( if you work under a CBA, ) if we win our arbitration of language, only in america does an expiration date have to be arbitrated, reminds me of " what the definitation of Is Is")
Then we will be glad to remain under our current contract rates are sufficient. we'll be gone before a raise will be needed.

The corporation can thank the forsightedness of mr nic for this debacle.....unfortunately for the shareholders and the hopeful windfallers, nobody contemplated the contracted loa to expire without a replacement loball contract....

There bad,........

So for anyone working under a CBA, you must wish for management to honor these contracts, especially if an arbitrator rules upon the language. for your own benefit....

Can someone please translate this into (non-drunk) English?

 

[cleardirect]

Federal courts tend to be tacky when their instructions are ignored. Is that really what any of you want? Thanks to the RLA you have to continue working under your old contracts until a new one is approved. Can you all afford to retire under your current contract for the sake of principle? Especially for a principle that a Federal court has said does not apply?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, you do have a dog in this fight. ( if you work under a CBA, ) if we win our arbitration of language, only in america does an expiration date have to be arbitrated, reminds me of " what the definitation of Is Is")
Then we will be glad to remain under our current contract rates are sufficient. we'll be gone before a raise will be needed.

The corporation can thank the forsightedness of mr nic for this debacle.....unfortunately for the shareholders and the hopeful windfallers, nobody contemplated the contracted loa to expire without a replacement loball contract....

There bad,........

So for anyone working under a CBA, you must wish for management to honor these contracts, especially if an arbitrator rules upon the language. for your own benefit....

I always laugh when you east guys try and convince OAL pilots that you hold the high moral ground and that you are doing this all for the industry. Nothing could be farther from the truth. You guys are doing this for yourselves and no one else.

DOH is not the gold standard. Relative seniority has become the normal way of integrating when the difference is so great between the two companies. Where was the industry outrage when AA stapled TWA? But now that you think that the east got a raw deal you want to make it an industry problem. Sorry guys the rest of the industry has looked and determined that you made a deal live up to it.

What the industry should be concerned about is the crazy theories that the east has put up. That final and binding only applies to the merger reps not the pilots they represent. That seniority is negotiable and can be changed if the majority wants to. That binding arbitration really only applies if both sides thinks that it is fair.


We have the perfect storm of facts here. The east says that you are going to arbitrate language over snap backs. If it was clear there would be no need because both sides would understand what it means. So using the east logic that arbitration outcome needs to be fair and it does not apply to usapa because it was ALPA that did it. Let’s say that usapa manages to convince an arbitrator that you guys are owed $300 million per year. The company then comes back and says it is not fair they will not pay. That, that contract was negotiated under ALPA and sign by a company called US Airways and these guys are LCC so it does not apply.

You east guys going to say OK you are right never mind? By the east forwarding this nutty idea you all are putting arbitration in jeopardy. So trying to convince the rest of the industry that the east is in the right and they should support you just makes me laugh. BTW where were all the other unions that were going to come out in force during the appeal to support you guys? We were told the other unions were there with you agreeing that DOH not arbitration is the gold standard. Where is that support?

 

[EastUS]

I always laugh when you east guys try and convince........

DOH is not the gold standard.

It all makes sense to me now. No need for any further debate. The new "gold stadard", as established by the tiny group of industry standard setting AWA folks, is both fully reasonable and quite clear. How could anyone ever think otherwise? All one needs to do is realize that someone with all of 3 months worked at AWA should properly be "senior" to others with 16+ years worked elsewhere......