US Pilot Labor Thread--11/16-23

[Tiger 1050]

Addington vs. USAPA worked. Thanks...

 

[cleardirect]

Have you tried GOOGLE? Works for me every time!

USAPA doesn't have to desperately try to defend their position in a vain attempt to gain more contributions to a losing cause.

Oldie,

How do you consider it “desperationâ€￾ to make available the raw documents unedited, with no commentary? These documents are downloaded from the courts and made available. USAPA’s filings are also available. We know both sides of the argument. We see the ebb and flow of the case. That is not desperate that is informing myself.

If your airplane was on fire but did not know it. Would you like to have that information or only believe that everything is good because the fire warning system had not gone off yet?

Just like the west did for the arbitration hearings the transcripts were published. We then made up our own minds. What did the east have to keep you informed? In the end who was more surprised by the result?

Google only takes you to a couple of documents. Have you seen the declaration by Hemenway, Stockdale? Read the entire federal hybrid DRF, state class action suit or the federal injunction? The 22 pages of response to USAPA motion to dismiss or the motion to remand? These are all lengthy documents that can not and should not be summarized by anyone biased.

For the sake of argument, what happens if the judge does decide to grant the injunction and implement the Nicolau award. Would you and the rest of the east rather read all of the documents for yourself and maybe see the decision coming or believe that all is well because USAPA says so? Will you be more angry or less if you know that the possibility exists?

 

[BoeingBoy]

While...

Some updated numbers, although anything after 2Q07 would have to come from someone with access to the actual fleet counts on each side since US stopped reporting separate numbers for East and West after that quarterly filing due to the single ops certificate being issued.

East as of end of 3Q06 (4 days after minimum fleet count was to be established) - 224 aircraft
- minimum fleet = 202 aircraft (not counting E-190's per TA)

East of of end of 2Q07 - 221 aircraft (plus 5 E-190's - 19 above minimum)

West as of end of 3Q06 - 133 aircraft
- minimum fleet = 120 aircraft

West as of end of 2Q07 - 132 aircraft (12 above minimum)

Since only combined fleet numbers have been reported since the end of 2Q07, the combined minimum fleet is 322 aircraft (assuming no changes in the fleet during the last days of September 2006). The end of 3Q08 combined fleet equaled 334 aircraft....12 above minimum.

I do notice that in the "protections" that USAPA is offering the West pilots the positions previously allowed for West pilots after integrated ops on the 3 ex-ATA 757's have been confiscated for East pilots since those aircraft can't even be considered "replacement aircraft" under any "maintaining the minimum fleet count" theory.

Jim

 

[electricjet98]

To view the lawsuit, try looking up addington vs. usapa.

From the 5/21 USAPA update

We've received some inquiries as to why USAPA is not communicating via US Mail. This is an electronic union and it will require a bit of participation on your part. You will see increasing amounts of electronic information come your way, please be ready to accept it. It is far less expensive and actually more secure to do business this way. With free email accounts and computers in most hotel lobbies, even those without a computer can easily stay informed. In addition to the email and web site updates, we have started posting a Weekly Wrap-up on the crew room bulletin boards that summarizes the week's updates. Finally, recent news is also available on the USAPA phone message, updated every few days. The news is out there; reach out and grab it!

From USAPA C&BL Section 8

A. To operate a non-profit, employee-representing association.
B. To protect the individual and collective rights of the members of USAPA and promote their professional interests.
C. To establish and exercise the right of collective bargaining for the purpose of negotiating and maintaining employment agreements covering income, benefits and work-rule conditions for the members of USAPA and to promptly settle disputes and grievances which may arise between such members and their employer. D. To maintain uniform principles of seniority based on date of hire and the perpetuation thereof, with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations. E. To promote the safety of scheduled air transportation.
F. To disseminate information in any responsible manner to enhance the professional status of the membership and to ensure a fully informed membership.G. To levy dues and assessments upon the membership with which to provide the funds necessary to conduct the business and objectives of the Association. H. To lease or purchase capital assets and/or real estate for the efficient conduct and execution of the Association’s business.
I. To purchase, lease or otherwise acquire personal property of every kind that may be necessary for the efficient conduct of the Association’s business and achieving the objectives of USAPA. J. To do any and all other acts consistent with and in furtherance of the objectives and purposes set forth in this Constitution and Bylaws, including the establishment of such legal entities as necessary to carry out the legitimate objectives and purposes of the Association.



So all the chest pounding about USAPA being an electronic union and emphasizing how it will keep members informed in a responsible manner simply means...do your own google search?

Looks to me like Scooter & Arnie learned well from ALPA...just feed them the information that can be dressed-up with a little spin to make it appear that your position is legitimate.

It simply astounds me that supposedly intellegent people are willing to surrender any skeptism they have of their "leadership"!

 

[cleardirect]

This is a segment of Al Hemenways declaration to the court. As you can see the east is over by 4, the west over by 5. But according to Parker at the last crew news that number changes every couple of weeks. Something that USAPA is going to have to keep a close eye on. Because he said that that further reductions are expected. We will see how strongly USAPA protects the west aircraft.

8. The Transition Agreement provides for what is known as a “fenceâ€￾ between the pilot workforces of America West and US Airways, which is a well-established practice in airline mergers. The fence means that the workforces shall remain separate and covered by their own pre-merger collective bargaining agreements during the period of “Separate Operations,â€￾ and until such time as the events described in paragraph 9 below have occurred. The Company is currently operating under the period of Separate Operations, and therefore maintains separate fleets of aircraft, designated by tail number, and pilot operations. Under these provisions, the Company must maintain a minimum fleet of 202 aircraft in the East fleet, and 120 aircraft in the West fleet. US Airways currently has 206 East aircraft and 125 West aircraft, although both fleets are expected to be subject to further aircraft reductions in 2009 to at or near minimum fleet size.

 

[Phoenix]

..

It simply astounds me that supposedly intellegent people are willing to surrender any skeptism they have of their "leadership"!

Your wishful attempts to delegitimize USAPA by inventing boogie men and grasping at straws that don't exist is.. a never ending source of amusement.

You are talking to a group of pilots that watched the union give away a several billion dollar pension without membership ratification, watched MEC members receive insurance protection from the company in the event that the pilots sued them (WTF).... ah, the abuses are too numerous to list again.

I have no doubt that USAPA will eventually succumb to the temptations of self-preservation and cronyism like its predecessor. But dear friend, you are about three or four decades too soon.

Cheers.

 

[EastUS]

It simply astounds me that supposedly intellegent people are willing to surrender any skeptism they have of their "leadership"!

You'll perhaps forgive my being entirely dismissive of the bulk of your posting but, as for "supposedly intellegent"etc? Simply realize that the need to be spoon-fed varies among different groups. I'm honestly interested in the thinking behind your signature line though = "The time value of money is what we all need to consider." Your assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to explain to one and all just how that factors into the west's notions of "integrity", "principles" and "morals"?..and, needless to say..why the "time value of work performed" has no place at all within your philosophy out there? Do you still have even the slightest remaining fantasy that any contract containing nic would be voted into existence here? Just curious as to the thinking involved.

 

[traderjake]

You are talking to a group of pilots that watched the union give away a several billion dollar pension without membership ratification

John Davis stole our pension when he refused to allow the plan to be frozen.

He got his lump sum.

 

[EastUS]

John Davis stole our pension when he refused to allow the plan to be frozen.

He got his lump sum.

A truly pathetic scenario in any case. Yea Alpa!! With "representation" like that..Who needed any enemies?

 

[nycbusdriver]

John Davis stole our pension when he refused to allow the plan to be frozen.

He got his lump sum.

When did that happen?

 

[Bus Driver]

John Davis stole our pension when he refused to allow the plan to be frozen.

He got his lump sum.

Traderjake,

prove this with documentation.

John Davis was retired prior to 9/11 when the pension was reported over funded.

This is nothing but an outright lie, unless you can prove it. So, prove your allegation.

Bus Driver

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not to put words in traderjake's mouth, but he may be referring to Davis' reported refusal to freeze the pension during the "more Airbuses than God can count" concession talks with Wolf. I have no idea if those reports were true or not, but the accusations flew hot and heavy in 2003 after the pension was terminated.

Jim

[added ps] There are two types of funding measures for pensions, BTW...

- On a continuing basis - which is what the report management sent out each year covered. If a pension is fully funded on a continuing basis, the funds in the pension plus estimated future earnings on those funds will pay benefits as they come due.

- On a termination basis - which is what management used in arguing for the termination of the plan. A plan is fully funded on a termination basis only if there are enough funds in the pension to pay all earned benefits when the plan is terminated.

Notice that the first relies heavily on the estimated return on funds in the plan - assuming an 8% return instead of 6% or 4% means that the funds in the plan will double in 9 rather than 12 or 18 years. The second includes no future return on the plan's funds.

During periods when the market is doing well (like most of the 90's) it takes less money actually in the plan to make it look "well funded" because return on those funds is assumed to be high. During periods when the market isn't doing very well (like 2000-2003) more funds are needed in the plan to make it look as well funded - assuming management makes honest estimates of the expected return. But if management wants to, they can play with the rates of return ("the returns averaged X% if we include the go-go 90's") to make the plan look well funded.

 

[Phoenix]

When did that happen?

Maybe Trader was one of the MEC who voted to give it away and feels a need to justify his vote.

If Davis had half the power his detractors allege... Only a charter member of the GAG could invent such a legend embodied in one person... one person who was able to singlehandedly hold at bay the entire ALPA machine that tried in vain to save us poor pilots from the one boogie man that was too big for even ALPA... Davis the Dread and Terrible.

If Al Gore wasn't so brilliant, Davis would have prevented his invention of the internet. It still remains to be seen if Davis can beat Gore in global warming.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Like I said - I personally have no idea if those stories that floated around were accurate or not. I do know first hand from watching him in action during his years on the merger committee while I was on the bid closing committee that he was a formidable opponent to have across the table, with great powers of persuasion. Anybody that can argue two diametrically opposite positions in the span of two months and convince those on the other side that he's right both times fits the proverbial "able to sell ice boxes to Eskimos" stereotype.

One's thing is not debatable - everyone has 20/20 hindsight. After March 31, 2003, it was easy to say that the pension should have been frozen at some point prior and to blame someone for the fact that it wasn't. That "obvious" conclusion wasn't so obvious in the late 90's when US was raking in profits - nobody knew or even suspected that the next 7 years or so would bring two bankruptcies and everything that accompanied them.

Jim

 

[twoturnin]

JIM--with the recent announcement of AA having over to date 475 pilots leaving because--->APA was smart enough to add "a retirement value lock-in feature" to their contract----this is just another shinning example of a in house pilot rep. group being far superior to fat cat labor party animal group----ooops sorry ALPA had many good dudes doing good things----I fly with a dude that was on the MEC during this whole time frame of giving away pension to PBGC---its not a pretty story---am still amazed that no legal action was ever taken against the MEC in this regard---I know I know spilt milk---Two