US Pilot Labor Thread--11/16-23

[oldiebutgoody]

... That "obvious" conclusion wasn't so obvious in the late 90's when US was raking in profits - nobody knew or even suspected that the next 7 years or so would bring two bankruptcies and everything that accompanied them.

Jim

And when, pray tell, was U "raking in the profits"? I've been here since the 1980's, and haven't seen U "raking in the profits" since before Ed Colodny left the property (which, I believe, was 1989). In fact, U furloughed in 1990. Those guys remained furloughed for YEARS. Good times, indeed.

Those ALPA guys were negotiating for one thing, THEMSELVES. Gimme, Gimme, Gimme! I've got mine(to use ALPA's motto).

 

[BoeingBoy]

And when, pray tell, was U "raking in the profits"?

They say that the mind is the 2nd thing to go and I can't remember what's 1st....

From annual reports:

"USAir Group recorded net income of $60.3 million for the fourth quarter of 1995 and net income of $119.3 million for all of 1995. USAir Group's earnings per common share was $0.61 for the fourth quarter of 1995 and $0.55 for all of 1995."

"The Company recorded net income of $27.2 million for the fourth quarter of 1996 and net income of $263.4 million for all of 1996. The Company's primary income per common share was $0.08 for the fourth quarter of 1996 and $2.69 for all of 1996."

"For 1997, the Company's operating revenues were $8.51 billion, operating income was $584.3 million, net income was $1.02 billion and earnings per common share (EPS) was $12.32 for basic and $9.87 for diluted."

"For 1998, the Company's operating income was $1.0 billion, income before taxes was $902 million, net income was $538 million and earnings per common share (EPS) was $5.60 on a diluted basis."

"For 1999, the Company's operating income was $136 million, income before taxes was $345 million, net income was $197 million and earnings per common share (EPS) was $2.64 on a diluted basis."

"For 2000, the Company's operating revenues were $9.3 billion, operating loss was $53 million, loss before cumulative effect of accounting change was $166 million and diluted loss per common share before cumulative effect of accounting change was $2.47."

I've included enough years that you can see the profits increasing to a peak in 1997 and then declining after that. The current basic contract (amended by LOA's) was agreed to in September 1997 - at the peak of the profits (wouldn't US love to be making $1 Billion a year now). I suspect that if the MEC had allowed the pension to be frozen in 1997, the howls of protest would have been just as loud as they were when the MEC allowed the pension to be terminated in 2003 - in 1997 nobody that I know saw what was coming in just a few years.

Jim

ps - apology accepted...

 

[tazz]

I'd say that it turned out very well indeed. His homeland endured, and any existence of Democracy, and all of what later evolved into western civilization would otherwise have been destroyed in their infancy. King Leonidas..unlike, ahem.."some" people, didn't place his personal gain, nor even continued survival ahead of what he believed to be Right. "We have learned from history." Sure you have.... If history's taught us anything at all, it's that the "It's ALL about MEEE!!" concept does nothing more than promote the continued evolution of evil, and indeed, provides it's finest manure for fullest growth. In case it's entreily escaped your consderations to date; the universe has been around for an estimated 12.4 or so billion years. I'm of the properly humbling notion that it wasn't created just for my brief life. ...Perhaps some out west believe otherwise? That would readily explain the west's "Righteous Position"=

AAAPOS: "I dont care about "merit","experience","who's right or wrong", etc."

Tazz: "The fact that they worked twelve more years than I did is irrelevant to our respective positions when merged."

Leonidas: "I want the captain seat..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it!".


The actual King Leonidas to the Persian ruler: "If you knew what was good in life, you would not seek to take foreign things".

Reread your own post. These circumstances do apply today. I am not out for personal gain, just fairness for my own group. While you continue to rehash old quotes I will stand by the one above regarding the irrelevant twelve year difference. When we "merged" your LOS to US Airways ended. So did my LOS to AWA. A new LOS was established to the new US Airways. Slotting by position relative to your seniority is and was fair. I believe that deep down inside you do realize that we're right you will just never admit it. Doesn't matter, however, because what the judge thinks is right is all that will matter.

 

[tazz]

Very compelling indeed. While your attitudes, by east standards, must be seen as those of a pilot with but a few years yet worked; I'm well pleased that you enjoy your workplace and excellent fellowship. I'm now certain that any and all out east would love nothing better than to fly with you folks...and would especially be interested to learn all about even just the radiant "ray of light" so well demonstrated by your denial of jumpseats alone.... Clearly, there's much "light" to be warmed by herein

Eastus, I do believe you're jealous! Regarding your jumpseat comment, I will say this one more time. While commuting to Rhode Island I was twice denied jumpseat on east metal. Never tried again. (Southwest is so much better anyway.) So tell me while I, as a captain, should be so inclined to extend that courtesy to the very same group that craps on me? It is apparant in all the actions of the east that they fully expect that they can walk all over the west pilots and then are appalled that the west pilots return the favor. It was blatant since day one.

 

[electricjet98]

AWAPPA UPDATE

NOVEMBER 17, 2009



Fellow America West pilots,

The America West pilots often wonder when many East pilots, and in particular USAPA's self-appointed leadership, might finally realize (if ever) and accept certain facts about our current situation:

1) The company has placed a price tag on USAPA's proposed seniority list that the East pilots will never be willing to pay. As we've stated previously, despite the fact that the company many not publicly comment on their position in regards to the Nicolau Award, we wholeheartedly believe that the company will not accept USAPA's list unless USAPA indemnifies the company from litigation from the West and provides the company significant concessions (which of course would mostly come from the West contract).


2) USAPA will never achieve anything meaningful without the support of the America West pilots. Strength in numbers is a core union value that USAPA will never achieve so long as it views the West as a "disgruntled minority", and attempts to pursue their fantasy seniority list.


3) The court system will likely not agree with any of Lee Seham's legal assertions, nor have they so far. Yet, despite Seham's continued courtroom fumbling, Seham's firm was paid over $180,000 in just the first two months that USAPA was on property (source:
While it might be entertaining for many of us to sit back and watch USAPA continuously run head first into brick walls, we must take a step back from our own situation and ensure that we are not engaging in that same behavior. Meaning, it is of no value for our group to ignore certain realities of our situation if we ever intend to achieve our goals. To move forward, we must accept the following facts:

USAPA is our legally elected bargaining agent. We extensively explored all avenues to prevent the legal election of USAPA, however the fact remains that we were outnumbered in the vote (which is merely a circumstance rather than a virtue). However, along with the right that USAPA has to bargain on our behalf, comes numerous legal and ethical obligations.

USAPA has the right to collect dues and fees from America West pilots. Despite that fact that it was well within the company's right to require USAPA to renegotiate the union security clauses for both East and West contracts, the company chose permit USAPA to merely "inherit" that language. Although we are disappointed by the company's decision, it was not entirely improper, as both USAPA and the company similarly inherited the requirement to use the accepted Nicolau Award in the combined contract. Therefore, so long as certain rules are followed, USAPA does have the right to collect dues and fees from America West pilots.

Those are certainly unpleasant facts. However, as we mentioned, those benefits for USAPA come with strings attached in the form of laws, contracts, and ethical obligations that must be satisfied. The pilot group is already in court as a result of the breach of some of those obligations, may soon be in front of an arbitrator as a result of the breach of another. Also, legal options are currently being researched to correct other wrongdoings by USAPA. We are confident that all of these efforts on behalf of the AWA pilots will ultimately be successful.

We founded AWAPPA with the purpose of protecting the legal interests of America West pilots, and in particular, with the goal of defending the Nicolau Award. As we mentioned in a previous update, the Nicolau Award has become more of a backburner issue for us (AWAPPA) now that the company is disinterested in any sort of joint contract and because we are already in the court system over issues related to the Award. Despite the Nicolau Award being a backburner issue for us, we do stand ready at any moment to seek the immediate intervention of the legal system should the award be threatened. Therefore, our focus over the past several months has primarily membership and agency shop issues, and as you've seen, USAPA's flagrant disregard of labor laws and even their own Constitution has required us to take action.

In light of the recent changes to USAPA's Constitution, we are currently constructing an update that contains options and recommendations available to you in regards to USAPA membership and Section 29. We hope that you recognize that sometimes the most prudent advice does not win popularity contests, and that no matter what path each America West pilot chooses, we are all on the same side and in pursuit of the same goals.

History has repeatedly shown that little single-issue independent unions such as USAPA always fail, and particularly when they're represented by Lee Seham. Consider the following examples from recent history:

United Airlines Aircraft Mechanics - AMFA, a former client of Seham, displaced the IAM a few years ago. It failed miserably; United promptly subcontracted a huge number of mechanics' jobs with the result that thousands of United mechanics are on furlough. A recent NMB representation election recently replaced AMFA with the Teamsters.

Northwest Airlines Aircraft Mechanics - The independent union Seham represented displaced the IAM and later went on strike. The strike was a complete failure. All of the strikers were permanently replaced, mostly by subcontractors, and the actual mechanic class and craft that the independent union would in theory represent (if it actually had the support of the scabs, which it does not) would be a fraction of the original workforce.

Northwest Airlines Flight Attendants - Seham represented an independent flight attendant union which won a representation election against the Teamsters. Apparently the flight attendants concluded that this so-called union was unable to represent their interests, because after only a few years of representation it was ousted in an NMB election and the AFA now represents the Northwest flight attendants.

Continental Flight Attendants - USAPA's lawyer (through his actual paying client, a company called the McCormack Advisory Group) helped form an independent union for flight attendants in an effort to displace the IAM as the Continental flight attendant's union. The IAM sued the independent union, its officers, and McCormack for misappropriating IAM membership lists. McCormack consented to a judgment against it and paid damages to the IAM. The independent union and its officers ultimately settled with the IAM and those officers are now suing McCormack who is represented by USAPA's law firm. In other words, USAPA's lawyer's client in that case (McCormak) is being sued by the independent union that same lawyer helped start.

While our plight against USAPA may not be as quick and harm-free as we may like, be confident that so long as we remain unified against our common enemy, history clearly shows what will come of USAPA if it remains on its current path.

We urge you to stay tuned for our next update.

In solidarity, AWAPPA

 

[EastUS]

Reread your own post. These circumstances do apply today. I am not out for personal gain, just fairness for my own group. While you continue to rehash old quotes I will stand by the one above regarding the irrelevant twelve year difference. When we "merged" your LOS to US Airways ended. So did my LOS to AWA. A new LOS was established to the new US Airways. Slotting by position relative to your seniority is and was fair. I believe that deep down inside you do realize that we're right you will just never admit it. Doesn't matter, however, because what the judge thinks is right is all that will matter.

"deep down inside you do realize that we're right you will just never admit it." Unbelieveable...just flatly unbelievable....were I not seeing it here...

Even in youth; I never posessed the needed narcicism and self obsession required for anyone to be able to tell any other, that they're themselves so "special" that they "deserve" equivalent, much less superior status, with anyone who's experienced and done far, far more than themselves. However anyone attempts to rationalize and dress that kind of BS up...it remains just that = BS. Your thinking's honestly a total mystery to me, and I'm very greatful that that's the case. You've flatly stated that you should be placed equal to someone with twelve more years worked than yourself, a person with more than twice your own years worked, and tout that as being "fair". Words just fail me there. What can you possibly, truly base such narcisstic nonsense on? If your positon out west's not a defining moment in the history of "It's ALL about MEE"...Well...I just don't know what would better qualify as being a classic case of immoral and irrational advancement of pure self interest. I guess we were simply raised differently......

 

[EastUS]

So tell me while I, as a captain, should be so inclined to extend that courtesy to the very same group that craps on me?

Simple. It's called "Doing the Right Thing" You know? = "Integrity Matters", "Morals", "Principles" and all that? My actions via never denying any west pilot "my" jumpseat are based on actual principles and respect for the profession, and are not going to be changed at all by any pathetically adolescant behavior of others...even by your fine group's "ray of light"

 

[nycbusdriver]

AWAPPA UPDATE

Fellow America West pilots,

The America West pilots often wonder when many East pilots, and in particular USAPA's self-appointed leadership, might finally realize (if ever) and accept certain facts about our current situation:

1) The company has placed a price tag on USAPA's proposed seniority list that the East pilots will never be willing to pay.

2) USAPA will never achieve anything meaningful without the support of the America West pilots.

3) The court system will likely not agree with any of Lee Seham's legal assertions, nor have they so far.

These are facts? These are, at best, conjecture. Some might even call it fantasy. (I don't because they are not beyond the realm of possibility. They just are NOT facts.)

Just because you call them facts DOES NOT MAKE IT SO. Your AWAPPA UPDATE is disingenuous and misleading. But, with your collective heads buried deeply in ???, I can't imagine that you all would even be able to notice.

 

[EastUS]

A truly pathetic scenario in any case. Yea Alpa!! With "representation" like that..Who needed any enemies?

Note. I intended to edit out reference to Mr Davis within the quote responded to, and the posting's intent was directed entirely towards Alpa's typically "brilliant" actions.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I fly with a dude that was on the MEC during this whole time frame of giving away pension to PBGC---its not a pretty story---am still amazed that no legal action was ever taken against the MEC in this regard---

No legal action? There are several civil lawsuits slogging their way through the federal court system for over 5 years now over this action by ALPA, USAirways, and RSA.

USAirways slithered out from under the threat of this litigation with the second bankruptcy.

ALPA and RSA are still tap-dancing in front of various federal judges at various points in time.

 

[cleardirect]

"deep down inside you do realize that we're right you will just never admit it." Unbelieveable...just flatly unbelievable....were I not seeing it here...

Even in youth; I never posessed the needed narcicism and self obsession required for anyone to be able to tell any other, that they're themselves so "special" that they "deserve" equivalent, much less superior status, with anyone who's experienced and done far, far more than themselves. However anyone attempts to rationalize and dress that kind of BS up...it remains just that = BS. Your thinking's honestly a total mystery to me, and I'm very greatful that that's the case. You've flatly stated that you should be placed equal to someone with twelve more years worked than yourself, a person with more than twice your own years worked, and tout that as being "fair". Words just fail me there. What can you possibly, truly base such narcisstic nonsense on? If your positon out west's not a defining moment in the history of "It's ALL about MEE"...Well...I just don't know what would better qualify as being a classic case of immoral and irrational advancement of pure self interest. I guess we were simply raised differently......

East,

No one out west think that we are “special or superiorâ€￾ . Again we the west pilot did not place ourselves next to someone that has 12 years more on your list. Nicolau, a neutral third party arbitrator did that.

A neutral came to the conclusion that it was fair to place someone in their relative position. It took 12 years more at US Airways in order to hold the same position on our list as ours.

Now we are only trying to implement what was agreed to by all three parties. We are not trying to get anything more then what was agreed to.

Have we asked or demanded anything more then what Nicolau decided? NO!

 

[ableoneable]

Even in youth; I never posessed the needed narcicism and self obsession required for anyone to be able to tell any other, that they're themselves so "special" that they "deserve" equivalent, much less superior status, with anyone who's experienced and done far, far more than themselves. However anyone attempts to rationalize and dress that kind of BS up...it remains just that = BS. Your thinking's honestly a total mystery to me, and I'm very greatful that that's the case. You've flatly stated that you should be placed equal to someone with twelve more years worked than yourself, a person with more than twice your own years worked, and tout that as being "fair". Words just fail me there. What can you possibly, truly base such narcisstic nonsense on? If your positon out west's not a defining moment in the history of "It's ALL about MEE"...Well...I just don't know what would better qualify as being a classic case of immoral and irrational advancement of pure self interest. I guess we were simply raised differently......

The west pilots are attempting to preserve what they had prior to the merger and not move backward. You see this as an attempt to achieve "equivalent or superior status" to east pilots who worked longer at old USAir.

Because the west pilots do not want to sacrifice their careers to pay for the problems that the east pilots encountered prior to the merger you see us as self centered children.

Jim's simple explanation of seniority is probably the best so I will cite it here. He maintained that a true measure of seniority is to asses how your bidding horsepower compares pre and post merger. After integration, given no growth or contraction, if you can hold the same equipment, seat, schedule, vacation etc. as you could prior to the merger, then the lists have been fairly combined.

DOH/LOS with C&Rs would not produce this result. We would see the eventual trading of fortunes. Indeed it has already started. Furloughed east pilots are now doing the jobs brought to the merger by (now) furloughed west pilots. There are west captains now in the right seat and east F.O.s in the left seat. An integrated LOS list would only exacerbate this effect. You consider this a fair and just ends because east pilots worked longer for USAir than west pilots worked for America West.

This longer tenure confers no special privileges or protections, nor should it do so. (That's why we call it a seniority list, not a longevity list.) The fact that you are so hung up on the fact that east pilots have been working at their old carrier longer and therefore deserve special consideration tells me that your ego is effecting your point of view. Because you worked for a company that existed prior to deregulation you were well compensated and I congratulate you for that. I hope that you were able to use the purchasing power of those dollars to make strong investments. You have already been compensated for your prior service.

You were also hired in at a time when it was easier to get a major airline job. By your own admission you had less than four thousand hours when a USAir predecessor company hired you. This does not impugn your qualifications it just is the what the hiring market allowed at the time. Most of the AWA new hires had five to eight thousand hours, jet PIC and management experience when they were offered employment.

The fact that you are older and worked for an older company longer than we worked at a younger company has no and should have no bearing on the seniority integration.

It's not all about you.

 

[sharktooth]

Like I said - I personally have no idea if those stories that floated around were accurate or not. I do know first hand from watching him in action during his years on the merger committee while I was on the bid closing committee that he was a formidable opponent to have across the table, with great powers of persuasion. Anybody that can argue two diametrically opposite positions in the span of two months and convince those on the other side that he's right both times fits the proverbial "able to sell ice boxes to Eskimos" stereotype.

One's thing is not debatable - everyone has 20/20 hindsight. After March 31, 2003, it was easy to say that the pension should have been frozen at some point prior and to blame someone for the fact that it wasn't. That "obvious" conclusion wasn't so obvious in the late 90's when US was raking in profits - nobody knew or even suspected that the next 7 years or so would bring two bankruptcies and everything that accompanied them.

Jim

Actually, sir, according to the Buttman, the company only first approached the MEC in the summer prior to retirement termination with a proposal to "freeze" the plan. I asked, what did the MEC (sans Davis) say (Davis had been retired for several years by then). Buttman said, the MEC did not respond, at all.

Look, the only group to benefit from a termination vs a freeze would have been the Shuttle dudes. Garland is on record as being against a "freeze". In his shoes, so would I. These guys not only refused retirement integration but then, went on to terminate the US retirement plan in order to take part in the government mandated payout, so sweet, from the former US pilot's pocket book.

Can't you guys figure it out? You've been taken. And you are gonna be taken again if you let the "nic" go through.

I say, 140 IAS max 30 miles from the airport. I always wondered if the autopilot can handle M .72 at altitude.

 

[EastUS]

This longer tenure confers no special privileges or protections, nor should it do so.

The fact that you are older and worked for an older company longer than we worked at a younger company has no and should have no bearing on the seniority integration.

It's not all about you.

"It's not all about you." No kidding? Given that, from any selfish perspective, I couldn't personally care less about nic, as it wouldn't effect any changes in my life,...we can certainly agree that's it's not about me.

"This longer tenure confers no special privileges or protections, nor should it do so." What's the honest and actual basis for asserting that? ...other than the west's personal convenience and desire to step over people who've more work experience logged?

"The fact that you are older and worked for an older company longer than we worked at a younger company has no and should have no bearing on the seniority integration." If that's not a wantonly disrespectful, wholesale testimony to outright personal greed....I don't know what is. I have never labored under what seems to be a universally accepted west notion that any amount of contrived BS can ever "justify" such nonsensical (actually so self-obsessed as to appear insane), "thinking" as is seen out there.

"It's not all about you." A true pity that many seem utterly incapable of actually understanding that......

 

[EastUS]

You were also hired in at a time when it was easier to get a major airline job. By your own admission you had less than four thousand hours when a USAir predecessor company hired you. This does not impugn your qualifications it just is the what the hiring market allowed at the time. Most of the AWA new hires had five to eight thousand hours, jet PIC and management experience when they were offered employment.

PS: I've had an open wager here for over a year for any of you that wish to dazzle me with your flying skills....