US Pilot Labor Thread--11/16-23

[BoeingBoy]

Please elaborate to us all exactly how the East and/or USAPA is "destroying west careers" when the CR's leave everyone exactly where they are today (and where they would be, sans merger)

This should be good.

I haven't looked to see if the latest bid results are out, so based on bid 08-04:

Suppose East pilot seniority #847 bids a PHX vacancy on the 757. Where does he fit on the roster in PHX and what happens to the #1 pilot in PHX?

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

Please elaborate to us all exactly how the East and/or USAPA is "destroying west careers" when the CR's leave everyone exactly where they are today (and where they would be, sans merger)

This should be good.

Obviously there exist two career expectations, the one based on seniority and the one based on caprice. By definition, union members should be opposed to caprice but if caprice results in an extremely lucrative personal benefit then some can be tempted to a new persuasion (witness the ubiquitous examples).

Predictably one's tolerance (or new found affection) for the stench of caprice might be proportional to the expected increase of personal benefit.

 

[BoeingBoy]

An excellent description of an East pilot, Phoenix. Seeing what they could hold out west as opposed to what their East seniority allows them to hold, creates a strong desire for DOH mergers.

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

An excellent description of an East pilot, Phoenix. Seeing what they could hold out west as opposed to what their East seniority allows them to hold, creates a strong desire for DOH mergers.

Jim

Its always enjoyable to get a rise out of you (so to speak )

Those who favor caprice need not be pointed out, even if they don't understand the meaning of the word.

 

[Pi brat]

An excellent description of an East pilot, Phoenix. Seeing what they could hold out west as opposed to what their East seniority allows them to hold, creates a strong desire for DOH mergers.

Jim

Jim,

What happens if the Nic award is implemented and say #300 on the list takes a vacancy that moves him from PHL 7I capt. to PHX 75 capt.? How will that affect the #1 pilot in PHX? That is one of the most confounding things about the Nic award to me, why 517 were entitled to super seniority.

That aside, every east pilot should READ Judge Wake's ruling, not just listen to USAPA updates.

 

[V1cut]

Well, Jim, as usual, you have policed(barged) into another ongoing topic...

whatever,

We have designated the positions that existed in LAS and PHX as of 1 Jun 2008, prior to the recent system reductions, as West protected positions. These protected positions are preserved for West Pilot bidding and displaced West Pilots have recapture rights back to LAS or PHX throughout the term of the Conditions and Restrictions with few exceptions. West protected positions are eliminated if voluntarily vacated. If the number of Pilot positions in LAS and PHX increases above the initial protected positions count, any additional new Captain vacancies in LAS and PHX shall be available to East and West Pilots on a 1 for 1 basis. Additionally, West attrition is reserved for West Pilots.

System-wide DOH bidding is available to West Pilots at any time following the contract signing date.

West Pilots shall be entitled to one-third of the Captain and one-third of the First Officer positions on the first 25 EMB190 aircraft delivered, on a vacancy basis only.

In the event that EMB190 flying replaces current flying in LAS or PHX, EMB190 positions in LAS or PHX will be available to be included in the protected positions.

East Provisions

East attrition has been preserved for East Pilots.

East Pilots may bid positions in LAS and PHX as West Pilots bid east, and as LAS and PHX flying expands above the 1 June 2008 levels. The addition of a different category of aircraft would be open to a system-wide bid.


So, (Jim) as you can see, the CR's will protect ALL existing west positions up until they voluntarily bid out. This is designed to offer systemwide bidding to west guys at DOH...but that , in turn, opens the door to an unprotected west slot.

Bottom line:

get greedy and you may open the floodgates of East/West movement.

seems logical to me...and completely consistent with pre-merger "expectations" (whatever those are)

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim,

What happens if the Nic award is implemented and say #300 on the list takes a vacancy that moves him from PHL 7I capt. to PHX 75 capt.?

He/she would become #1 pilot in PHX, going from somewhere around the blockholder/reserve dividing line to top 757 Captain (a position he/she was unable to hold in the East)

How will that affect the #1 pilot in PHX?

Push him/her down to #2.

That is one of the most confounding things about the Nic award to me, why 517 were entitled to super seniority.

You may recall when I said that the widebody protection was one of the things I'd have done differently if I'd been the arbitrator. He used the "super seniority" method to protect not just the widebody captain jobs for the 517, but also to protect the widebody F/O jobs for the same group of senior pilots.

Presumably he used the "super seniority" method so that East pilots couldn't be displaced from those jobs by West pilots who would have the seniority if he slotted the lists together starting at the top.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Well, Jim, as usual, you have policed(barged) into another ongoing topic...

Nice cut and paste, V1cut. Doesn't answer my question, though. Could it be that you don't want to answer the question because to do so would point out the unfairness of DOH integration....

For extra credit, after answering the first question, can you point out the two contradictions in the C&R's USAPA wrote? You know, the old "give with one hand, take away with the other."

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

He/she would become #1 pilot in PHX, going from somewhere around the blockholder/reserve dividing line to top 757 Captain (a position he/she was unable to hold in the East)



Push him/her down to #2.



You may recall when I said that the widebody protection was one of the things I'd have done differently if I'd been the arbitrator. He used the "super seniority" method to protect not just the widebody captain jobs for the 517, but also to protect the widebody F/O jobs for the same group of senior pilots.

Presumably he used the "super seniority" method so that East pilots couldn't be displaced from those jobs by West pilots who would have the seniority if he slotted the lists together starting at the top.

Jim

Jim,

That's my point, Nic award or DOH, the effect of the top 517 east going west is the same. I believe it was an inequity, but I guess enough west guys got enough of a windfall to not worry about it.

Not sure I understand what you mean by F/O protection.

 

[Metroyet]

I am enjoying the west spin, like Metroyet claiming Bradford and company will be left penniless after the dust settles, not. By federal law (I remember from alpo charm school in the late 1980s), union leader actions are indemnified from financial loss except in the case of felonies.

A Little Law 101 for you. Check out the named defendants on the Class Action Suit. You won't find any mention of USAPA. Here is what you will find.

Defendants:

Bradford
Diorio
Frear
King
Mowery
Stephan

NO USAPA

Why? Because there "individuals" sued ALPA and the West MEC as "individuals". They themselves opened the door to being sued as "individuals". This was done, (as our attorneys said) "to bring the fight to their own doorsteps". Also, our attorneys shook their head in disbelief that a legal professional would have advised them to sue in that manner in the first place as it opened themselves up to this kind of peril...thank you Lee Seham!

Why no mention of USAPA? Because USAPA didn't exist when the "individuals" started this fight...therefore, no USAPA/union leadership laws to hide behind. Besides, this case will be won under contract law. The Judge already determined that once.

I wonder what it's like when 1750+ people are coming after you in court. Not very comfortable I'd imagine. Especially since the Judge has basically cleared they way for your demise.

That RLA shield you guys think is infallible is shrinking to the size of a postage stamp.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I believe it was an inequity, but I guess enough west guys got enough of a windfall to not worry about it.

We can discuss this "windfall" sometime if you'd like. Both the example I used (East pilot #847 on USAPA DOH list) and your example (East pilot #300 on some list) shows that the East pilot gained by going to PHX while pushing West pilots down. Maybe you can point out a single instance where a West pilot would gain from going to an East base? Or even gain from any East pilot going to PHX?

Not sure I understand what you mean by F/O protection.

Nic got the 517 by adding up the Capt widebody jobs, the F/O widebody jobs, then putting non-active East pilots back in where they belonged per the East list. As I recall, it was something like 150 widebody captain jobs, 250 widebody F/O jobs, and the remainder the non-active (disability, supervisory, etc). Hence, the East widebody F/O jobs were protected for the 517, not East F/O's. Of course, it went away with passage of Age 65 retirement (which Nic had no way of knowing would pass or not) except those 517 are still at the top of the Nic list.

Jim

 

[V1cut]

Nice cut and paste, V1cut. Doesn't answer my question, though. Could it be that you don't want to answer the question because to do so would point out the unfairness of DOH integration....

For extra credit, after answering the first question, can you point out the two contradictions in the C&R's USAPA wrote? You know, the old "give with one hand, take away with the other."

Jim

First, I wasn't addressing you, Jim...therefore, I don't care if your questions are unanswered. But, since you are obsessed with "the facts", I thought I'd quote the source of the CR's...rather than inject my own opinion. For good measure, I added a few thoughts at the bottom, which part eludes you Jim?...If the west bid out, or leave a slot unbid for, the east may bid it...and vice-versa, however, by doing so, said slot is no longer protected for the 10 years.

Are you incapable of understanding this? or should I use smaller words?

If the Nic survives, the East can "own" PHX at their discretion when the opportunity arises, and I already see westies objecting to that notion.
As to DOH "unfairness"...and your continual love affair with ALPA, maybe you'd pontificate on UAL's drive to change ALPA's policies to more "fairly" represent DOH/longevity/LOS....moving targets, you say?

I thought this was self-explanatory.

Guess not.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If the Nic survives, the East can "own" PHX at their discretion when the opportunity arises, and I already see westies objecting to that notion.

Nope, East can't "own" PHX but the 517 could make a pretty good whack at it if they so chose. However, under USAPA's DOH with C&R's, east can "own" PHX to at least as large a degree without having any of the 517 bid PHX. Anyone that claims that West is protected in PHX/LAS by the USAPA C&R's is drinking some strong koolaide.

Now how about that extra credit question - the two contradictions in USAPA's C&R's?

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

..
Now how about that extra credit question - the two contradictions...?

Jim

The first two contradictions that come to mind are Lance and Marshall, but they don't qualify. However, some might be inclined to posit that contradictions come in pairs.

 

[V1cut]

Nope, East can't "own" PHX but the 517 could make a pretty good whack at it if they so chose. However, under USAPA's DOH with C&R's, east can "own" PHX to at least as large a degree without having any of the 517 bid PHX. Anyone that claims that West is protected in PHX/LAS by the USAPA C&R's is drinking some strong koolaide.

Now how about that extra credit question - the two contradictions in USAPA's C&R's?

Jim

Which part of "vacancy" don't you get, Jim?
IF, a vacancy goes unfilled, EAST or WEST...it can be bid for by the other side...however, by doing so, any "protected" positions are lost in a number commensurate with voluntary "bid-outs".

The rest of your question is answered by the age-old premise of "seniority".

YES..indeed...MANY, MANY more than the 517 can "own" PHX IF AND ONLY IF there are VACANCIES out there that go unbid for by west FO's..

( I've been thinking you were up to speed on this kind of thing)

So, if you consider "pre-merger expectations"...there were no "east" positions to bid for, why would anyone do such a thing? Likewise, there were no "west" positions available to the east...leave it all as it was, and there's no harm, no foul.

But, if they do, that same position is up for grabs.

My 5 year old daughter can get this....why am I going over this with you?