US Pilot Labor Thread--11/16-23

[aquagreen73s]

We still have a problem here......you have not addressed the fact you need pilot ratifcation....not seperate ratification........both pilot groups as a whole must ratify.

What do you propose to get this?

You obviously weren't present at the October 29th hearing because if you were, you would have heard Judge Wake inform the company attorney that in the case where a DFR breach was found, he (Judge Wake) would rewrite the TA himself in order to implement a remedy AND that any remedy would include an immunity for the company against future litigation.

 

[nic4us]

We still have a problem here......you have not addressed the fact you need pilot ratifcation....not seperate ratification........both pilot groups as a whole must ratify.

What do you propose to get this?

I propose a Nic based amicable resolution that both sides could live with and moving forward not sitting still.

I just had a realization as to why the east hates the Nic decision so much, tell me if you may agree. The decision does not set back the east careers, those setbacks were inflicted prior to the Nic. However, the Nic is the first measuring stick that quantified those setbacks.

 

[wopr21]

Had Doug Parker done the right thing and the smart thing back in 2005, namely to extend immediate parity to the east pilots, this group would have done just about anything for him.

Had that been the case, it's possible that ALPA would still be on the property, the contract would be a done deal, and the Nic would be the list with C&R's to protect the east pilots.

Thats the best thing I've read here this morning

The company should have and still can play an active role in this mess.

wopr

 

[nycbusdriver]

You obviously weren't present at the October 29th hearing because if you were, you would have heard Judge Wake inform the company attorney that in the case where a DFR breach was found, he (Judge Wake) would rewrite the TA himself in order to implement a remedy AND that any remedy would include an immunity for the company against future litigation.

Does it include immunity from Judge Wake being overturned on appeal?

 

[wopr21]

Joe,

Your scenario is very plausible. The pilot group may very well be stalemated for years, maybe even a decade. On the other hand, once the Nicolau fight is over there may be enough support to get a contract ratified as the playing field will then be entirely changed. At that point the company will be completely in the driver's seat. They would have to offer some real incentive to get the east pilots to sign on, and, given the short-sightedness of the Tempe brain trust, I doubt that would happen.

My guess...no matter where Nic lands...we will be in contract negotiations for at least another 5 - 7 years, and maybe have self-help authorized in 2014 or 2015. This, of course, assumes that the Tempe brain trust hasn't run the company totally into the ground by then....another very plausible scenario given their track record.

Thats correct, This will go on until most of the east has retired and the west will wonder who they are fighting. They will finally go back to DOH , because thats all they will have. They will realize that they own the airline.

Through DOH you will get in time the position, aircraft and base that you deserve.

Let me add one more thing. If the west had been more senior than the east , I would have been ok with DOH, because I understand my time will come to be senior too. I would never feel like I was entitled to leap frog over people 12 years have an take a position that would have never been mine.

In frustration

wopr

 

[Megasnoop]

Since a dues objector only has to pay the portion of the agency fee germane to contract negotiations and enforcement, it would be improper for USAPA to charge any West objector for any portion of Seham's legal bills that are pertinent to a DFR suit.

These attorney fees are germane to contract negotiations and enforcement, just like when ALPO made objectors pay for its DFR defenses. Back in 1998, dues objectors tried to get refunds for the Duke-Spellacy lawsuits against alpo, but failed. That one got dismissed without a trial by judge order. As I remember, alpo rightly claimed a victory over NRTW, which it was. They didnt have to pay the assessment on the Duke $50 Million payout, but they paid outside attorney fees through their agency fee. But maybe the west will sue to have that money broken out. good luck.

I am enjoying the west spin, like Metroyet claiming Bradford and company will be left penniless after the dust settles, not. By federal law (I remember from alpo charm school in the late 1980s), union leader actions are indemnified from financial loss except in the case of felonies. If a union cant pay for a loss, it simply goes into union BK. Even at $10 Million a year dues, $10M split 1800 ways? Not a lot of $$. hard to have damages before you got a single contract. The judge eliminated any ongoing damage claims by dismissing request for preliminary injunction.

regarding contract negotiations, we show up at every session and we havent gotten near section 22. Bottom line, no leverage until December 2009, when LOA-93 becomes amendable. Parker has no reason to take us seriously til then. The west gave up their Section 6 leverage in June 2006, despite the East MEC urging for them to go forward. And just to set the pay record straight, on the wide body, I get paid higher rate than ANY west FO.

speaking of intl flying, female french and belgian controllers refuse to ID us as "Cactus." Were “Alpha Wiskey Echo 7XXâ€￾. Its an anatomy issue for them.

the west timeline thinks this is all going to be over with a february trial, instant verdict and the Nic forced into negotiations. Yeah right. Look at the history of ALPO dfrs. Dragged out for years. One example, after the Pan AM/DAL deal in 1991, the Spellacy group immediately sued. That case dragged on until August 1998. Spellacy won in a jury trial, the judge rejected the jurys decision and the appeals court upheld the judge. They got zilch out of a 7-year war, even though they won in court.

Think you may be disappointed...again. The recent change in CB&L's is not effctive until 30 days after being accepted by a vote.

And in 30 days that will be resolved, 98. You pay or you look for another job. Susie loophole closed. But as Bular told the BPRs, dont send me 1700 termination requests all at once. But speaking of paying up, rumor has it one prominent westie is promising to not only join and pay dues, but he wants to work on the grievance committee, dealing with west issues, Im sure.

You and the rest of the east regulars have tried many times, in vain, to convince us out west that we never had a leg to stand on. Well Judge Wake appears to disagree with you. Can you tell me about a case, any case, where binding arbitration has been overturned? I might believe you guys have a chance if Seham wasn't your lawyer. But then maybe he is not that bad. Maybe our case is just so crystal clear and no lawyer could fight his/her way out of it. Either way it does not bode well for your side.

Slow down 1050. All Judge Wake just said theres a letigatable issue. His opinion. The 9th circuit could overrule him between now and show time, or overrule him later. Worst case, we have to add the nic to our negotiations. If the company doesnt need a contract, were 12 months away from Section 6 negotiations and 3 years away from being able to put any pressure on them through NMB impasse self-help.

keep one thing in mind, just like alpo was willing to negotiate a separate operations contract, usapa could just as easily do the same thing, break the back on hull minimums and have another 10% reduction out west. With the new trans-atlantic augmented and double-crewed a/c, a 2% domestic reduction back east is easily absorbed, no furloughs.

For all this LOA93 pay pain, keep in mind were still living off house money. Ill be for another 5 years compared to what my DOH west contemporary has made the past 21.

You obviously weren't present at the October 29th hearing because if you were, you would have heard Judge Wake inform the company attorney that in the case where a DFR breach was found, he (Judge Wake) would rewrite the TA himself in order to implement a remedy AND that any remedy would include an immunity for the company against future litigation.

Let him rewrite it and see how that goes over with an Obama administration. Just one more case of a political appointee overstepping his Constutional authority and union bashing. At least he saw he had no juridiction in telling the company how they could furlough. Thats where the money was. you best hope usapa wins the TA arbitration disputes. Otherwise McIlvenna and TAZZ both eat the downgrade.

last comment on you westies. You dont know the history of our previous mergers. You cant condense thousands of pages of documents into a short recap, especially so far off base. snooper

 

[cleardirect]

I agree with most of your post. I always felt that Doug Parker's bad faith contract negotiations pre-Nicolau ended up biting him in the butt big time. As you pointed out, had the company been realistic in those negotiations (like Delta/Northwest), the joint contract might have already been ratified and simply awaiting the seniority arbitration and single certificate to be completed in order to take effect.

Assuming Nicolau would have presented his "award" in exactly the same way, there would actually be no C&R's to protect the east pilots. The change in Age 65 would have rendered those C&R's moot.

ALPA would still be on the property, and (my guess) at least 50% of the east f/o's would have resigned by now realizing that they had much greener grass on which to graze elsewhere. Certainly, most of the furloughees would not have returned, IMHO.

IF the courts do enshrine the Nicolau obscenity in the joint contract, I think we can still anticipate a large exodus from the east list, especially once the economy turns around and other flying opportunities return. In short order, all the Hawaii flying out of PHX will be staffed by former PSA pilots (and PSA flight attendants,) as will most of the other "good trips" out of PHX and LAS as the reality of Nicolau hits home. Selfishly, I will be happy to see all that super-horsepower head to PHX, knowing all the while that no one from PHX can affect my place on the list. Thank you, George N...but you're still a clueless mope.

Well I guess that someone has been reading. Sounds like at least a few of the east pilots are slowly beginning to come to the realization that the Nicolau could become reality.

So now the fear and threats begin. A little transparent I am afraid.

Are we now going to hear about all of the “super-senior†east pilots that are going to come flooding out west to take the good flying from us poor west pilots? What happened to the mantra we just want what we had? We don’t want to take your jobs. Nobody wants to go west and take anything from you.

How many times did we hear that the west coast commuters were flying international wide bodies so they will not give that up. If these super horsepower bidders are so senior and the wide body flying is the end all, be all of premier flying. Why would they leave all of that to come to little old PHX and fly such a pedestrian airplane like a narrow body from PHX to LAX?

Besides we accept that there will be some movement once the list is merge red. That is what happens. If we can accept new people coming into our bases why can’t the east? Plus there has to be a vacancy before anyone can move into the base. We have two vacancy bids in the last year. The latest one was a downgrade bid. It could be a long time before anyone gets to move to PHX for our “good†trips.

Anyway I thought that all of the “good flying†was off the east coast.

If ALPA were still on the property you say 50% would have quit. If the Nicolau is implemented by the court will 50 % of the F/O’s quit? Better warn them against that. Section 29 appears in the east contract also.

 

[sharktooth]

I just had a realization as to why the east hates the Nic decision so much, tell me if you may agree.

Disagree. The "east" does not "hate" the "nic".

Many from the east feel it is an irresponsible decision, abetted by the benign neglect for which ALPA is becoming famous. The "nic" ignores length of service and rewards those in the pilot group with the most inefficent work rules of the two. It ignores that the west pilots wanted DOH with the ATA proposal, which should have been a major factor in any competent arbitrator's analysis.

Instead, nic took apparently wrongful information (no SEC data) and extrapolated from that a fantasy future, presenting a list that has no relationship with reality, even a probable one. Even you should be able to see that US was/is far stronger financially than HP.

What is interesting is that with the "nic", you will guarantee yourselves a back seat with the next round of mergers, just like the PI/Emp millstone scuttled the PI pilots aspirations for "slotting". I can see it now, you, a fifteen year cap having to yank gear for a two year mesa-type dude, just because you "want it now, and I want the east pilots to pay for it". Karma sometimes takes a few years, but is inevitable.

"Hate" does not apply and belies a shallow take on a situation where one group found themselves with a potential windfall, then whines when the windfall is found to be endangered.

 

[Tiger 1050]

last comment on you westies. You dont know the history of our previous mergers. You cant condense thousands of pages of documents into a short recap, especially so far off base. snooper

You're right. We were not there and therefore could not possibly know it like you do. However, if you would take the time to read Judge Wake's ruling, you will find that Seham had tried many time, in vain, to point to "other" mergers. Even mergers from other unions! Care to guess what Judge Wake's response was?

I believe you'll see the Permanent Injunction include the implementation of the Nicolau award. It will be in place and in force. Regardless of the contract negotiations. Then you may move to appeal that ruling. If you find that you wish to do so. Keep in mind though, the basis of an appeal is limited in scope. There are only certain things one can file an appeal for. Well, a successful appeal. I'd venture to say that Judge Wake will be sure to cross his "T's" and dot his "I's." Sure, the appeals process may take many years but if the Nic is functioning then what good will it do you guys to stagnate the issue. I mean that's the whole issue isn't it? It is akin to making your child do what he/she promised to do. Without a permanent injunction what good would his ruling be...? Every indication is that Judge Wake fully understands what is happening here. Specifically the east's desire to frustrate implementation of the Nic.

 

[cleardirect]

From the Judges order:

The Plaintiff West Pilots allege in Count One that US Airways breached its
collective bargaining agreement by furloughing West Pilots ahead of New Hires and
failing to furlough West Pilots and East Pilots according to the Nicolau Award. Present
application of the Nicolau Award requires a strained reading of the Transition Agreement
because the Transition Agreement expressly permits use of separate seniority lists during
separate operations.



Okay guys, here is what the Judge said......."the transition agreement expressly permits use of seperate seniority lists during seperate operations"

You mixing the two cases together. That quotes was in reference to the temporary injunction. The judge ruled correctly that the company will run as separate operations. The point of the injunction was to furlough all new hires before anyone on either east or west list. Yes the company has the right to furlough as many as it requires and from the separate lists as needed. It just has to removed the third list FIRST.

So lets assume, for just a minute here, that the Judge rules FOR the WEST pilots and says that USAPA did not represent them in a fair fashion. First, the way I read his interpretation, it does NOT automatically implement the NIC. He would simply rule that the WEST pilots were not represented fairly. We still have to have a single contract to implement the NIC, per the Transition Agreement.

I believe that you are correct! We have to have a single contract in order to use the Nicolau. But what the DFR is requesting is the USAPA and the company be told that they have to use and implement the Nicolau when that contract is signed. Meaning that there will be no negotiations of the seniority list it will be the Nicolau. So going forward what ever contract is presented it will have the Nicolau list in it.

IF this is the case, we are still where we are right now. NOTHING CHANGES! I really don't think the WEST pilots realize just how vehemintly against the NIC the EAST pilots are. There is NO way I would vote yes on any contract that contained the NIC..........PERIOD. I would rather live with LOA 93. And any contract they do come up with REQUIRES it to go out for pilot ratification.

So be it. That is your choice. But if the judge rules in the west favor you will not have another choice. Any contract that is brought for a vote will contain the Nicolau award.

Secondly, the NIC is just a LIST. It is not part of the contract. How you implement THE list is IN THE CONTRACT. If you read Sections 22 of both contracts, you will find the wording is completely different. So how shall USAPA word Section 22? Do you really think a Judge will get into contract negotiations?

He could. If his ruling is that the Nicolau is implemented as written. It only contained a wide body fence he could require that no other fences are put in place.

Thirdly, IF the WEST prevails and the Judge agrees that they were not represented fairly, what damages will he award? NO ONE out WEST has been damaged in the least by USAPA. We are still operating under seperate operations according to the T/A. This T/A was agreed to by BOTH parties.....remember. And the Judge has said ......."the transition agreement expressly permits use of seperate seniority lists during seperate operations"

The damages he was talking about are for the out of seniority furloughs. That again is the injunction piece of this suit. The damages are for the furloughs and the out of seniority downgrades. It could also include damages to line holders that moved to reserve. The number could be very large. If we win expect a huge assessment.

And finally, if you don't like USAPA, who would you pick? ALPA again? Do you think that would change anything? NOT! WE, you and me, are THE UNION! It does not matter what name is on the door be it ALPA, USAPA, or any other name you give it.

It is not USAPA per se that we don’t like. We have no love for ALPA either. It is the action taken by USAPA. Suing individual west pilots for millions of dollars, disregarding agreements, clearly using the tyranny of your majority to impose lesser rights on the west. If this judge rules in the west favor and demands implementation of the Nicolau the west pilots will join. Then it will be you and me “the unionâ€￾. But as long as it is the east dictating to the minority what the east wants. No way.

All this being said, where do we go from here? Because when it is all said and done, we still have to reach a contract that is acceptable to all the pilots. It MUST be voted on and approved by a majority of the pilots, regardless of what anybody says. Nobody can change that fact. And you still can't implement the NIC without a single contract.

I agree we need to get to a single contract. If the judge rules in favor of the west the contract will contain the Nicolau. Period. Everyone will then have to decide how to vote. If you can not live with the Nicolau continue to vote no or leave. Your choice. But eventually if anyone wants a better contract you are going to have to come to grips with the Nicolau.

So once again, where do we go from here?

Court!

 

[cleardirect]

Disagree. The "east" does not "hate" the "nic".

Many from the east feel it is an irresponsible decision, abetted by the benign neglect for which ALPA is becoming famous. The "nic" ignores length of service and rewards those in the pilot group with the most inefficent work rules of the two. It ignores that the west pilots wanted DOH with the ATA proposal, which should have been a major factor in any competent arbitrator's analysis.

That is a patiently false statement. An urban myth perpetuated by the east. I spoke to the chief pilot at the time those “discussion†were going on. That situation never got to the merger stage. There was never, none , no, nada talks about seniority integration with ATA. Never happened. So there could never have been any talk about how we might have been merged.

Instead, nic took apparently wrongful information (no SEC data) and extrapolated from that a fantasy future, presenting a list that has no relationship with reality, even a probable one. Even you should be able to see that US was/is far stronger financially than HP.

“Apparently†wrong information? Only in your opinion. The testimony from the expert witnesses that had the facts probably had more of an influence that your apparent rumor.

Really? Are you still trying to perpetuate that myth also?

From the judge’s order. Judge Wake is a former bankruptcy judge. He is well aware of how to read financials.

However, at the time of the merger, US Airways had dim economic prospects. The company was insolvent and operating in bankruptcy reorganization, and it had 1,751 pilots on furlough status. America West, by contrast, was in stronger financial condition, and all of its pilots were on active status. The arbitrator concluded that the superior employment prospects of the West Pilots justified a superior position in the seniority list. At the same time, he declined to give the West Pilots the full seniority that they requested. On December 20, 2007, US Airways accepted this seniority list.

That is two independent people who have looked at the FACTS of this case and have come to the same conclusion. US Airways was going out of business. In what world is an insolvent company in a stronger financial position than a company that had declared profits for three quarters prior to the merger?

What is interesting is that with the "nic", you will guarantee yourselves a back seat with the next round of mergers, just like the PI/Emp millstone scuttled the PI pilots aspirations for "slotting". I can see it now, you, a fifteen year cap having to yank gear for a two year mesa-type dude, just because you "want it now, and I want the east pilots to pay for it". Karma sometimes takes a few years, but is inevitable.

Once again the arrogance of the east. Comparing America West to a commuter airline. In what possible situation could a “two year mesa type dude†be senior to a 15 year captain? You have got to spin that story for me. A captain remained a captain under the Nicolau. Exactly how would a 15 year captain end up in the right seat?

You are correct Karma is inevitable. Judge Wake may just be that karma.

"Hate" does not apply and belies a shallow take on a situation where one group found themselves with a potential windfall, then whines when the windfall is found to be endangered.

I assume that you are now talking about USAPA and the east pilots that are probably going to loss your dream of DOH. Read the entire ruling there is no way to spin it other then a total rejection of USAPA.

Just one quote from the judge’s order.
The Rakestraw decision contains only one citation of Air Wisconsin, and that citation is favorable. Although Rakestraw reaffirms the principle that a union may change its bargaining position and adopt a date-of-hire policy, it nowhere disavows Judge Posner’s dictum. Rakestraw does not permit a union to formulate its policy in an improper manner. Rakestraw, 981 F.2d at 1535 (“The change must rationally promote the aggregate welfare of employees in the bargaining unit.â€). Like many other cases USAPA cites on fair representation, Rakestraw will not bear the weight USAPA places upon it.

 

[traderjake]

Man, I hope when I retire from this job I will have a life that does not have me hanging around the airline electronic forums trying to insert myself into the business of a group that said "Adieu" so long ago. Go back to school. Go fishing. Go volunteer. Go get a life already.

Nice personal attack, but a little too transparent.

Sorry it offends you that someone who worked here for 20 plus years is interested in what happens.

It's just a coincidence that he disagrees with you.

 

[V1cut]

Purely opinion...


So does this mean we can put the east pilots on the hot seat for campaigning for and advocating the removal of ALPA? Uh-oh!


Explain how, until a recent vote to amend the C&BL's, one was to become a member. Each and every pilot is afforded rights under the RLA regarding dues. Members or not.

"campaigning?..is that how you describe the actions of the militant group out west?..."campaigning"?....uh, nobody out east dreaming of getting rid of ALPA EVER did any of the heinous acts that the west did...don't even attempt to compare the two.

Secondly, here's a thought:
As to "joining" pre-C$BL change:

You PROPERLY fill out a membership application.

You ALLOW others' to fill one out as well. (without the harrassment cases before the company we now have)

You indicate that you's like to be a West Rep in LAS or PHX...

(you act like this is rocket-science)

Then the C&BL's wouldn't have had to be changed at all.

And while you didn't ask, ( one of your buddies did, fodase, or whoever)...

Please elaborate to us all exactly how the East and/or USAPA is "destroying west careers" when the CR's leave everyone exactly where they are today (and where they would be, sans merger)

This should be good.

 

[Metroyet]

Does it include immunity from Judge Wake being overturned on appeal?

How many instances in established case law is there of an appellate court overturning a "permanent" injunction?

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

"campaigning?..is that how you describe the actions of the militant group out west?..."campaigning"?....uh, nobody out east dreaming of getting rid of ALPA EVER did any of the heinous acts that the west did...don't even attempt to compare the two.

Secondly, here's a thought:
As to "joining" pre-C$BL change:

You PROPERLY fill out a membership application.

You ALLOW others' to fill one out as well. (without the harrassment cases before the company we now have)

You indicate that you's like to be a West Rep in LAS or PHX...

(you act like this is rocket-science)

Then the C&BL's wouldn't have had to be changed at all.

And while you didn't ask, ( one of your buddies did, fodase, or whoever)...

Please elaborate to us all exactly how the East and/or USAPA is "destroying west careers" when the CR's leave everyone exactly where they are today (and where they would be, sans merger)

This should be good.

Yes, this will be good. I plan to attend the usapa trial every day that I can.

Not only should it be good, but fun as well.

Watching, listening intently as the NIC becomes closer and closer to reality. Judge Wake was none too impressed with much of anything the east and their hired guns had to say during the prelims. I expect more of the same as the trial progresses.

Say does Seham turn all red in the face when he gets mad? How about Stevie B.? We're about to find out.

Good, indeed!!!