US Pilot Labor Thread--11/16-23

[BoeingBoy]

able,

The links are nice, but you have to sign in to get to the forum...

Jim

 

[ableoneable]

My bad.

I will try something else.

 

[electricjet98]

(Oh, and be prepared to pay for BOTH sides of the litigation, westies. Defending the union is a germane expense, so even the non-members will pay to play in the big time courts...both sides. And we all know that Parker said ON CAMERA that he has to fire if payments to the union aren't made. Hope your kids like public school and community college.)

Think you may be disappointed...again. The recent change in CB&L's is not effctive until 30 days after being accepted by a vote. Then at the next BPR, they could accept west applications. Until that point, we have not been granted "the same terms and conditions" of membership. Of course even then, it's debateable if our membership truely has the same "terms and conditions" as reserved for the east, particularily when you look at the Judge's recent statements. Expect to meet in Hemenway's office again...I'm sure that after this recent ruling from the Judge that they will jump at the chance to appear to be in collusion with USAPA.


29.A.2
The provisions of this Section 29 shall not apply
to any Pilot covered by this Agreement to whom
membership in the Association is not available
upon the same terms and conditions as are generally
applicable to any other Pilot.

 

[cleardirect]

You know, Tiger, at first I was flattered that you keep calling me Machtuck...but I am not, and therefore I'm asking you in front of the mods to stop for the last time. There is a policy to address the posters by their posted screen name, that includes you.

Now, back to business....the tactical mistakes the west has taken outweigh any perceived unfairness by USAPA to attempt to include them in the union and its direction/policies. I say perceived, because as soon as the judge is aware of the outright aggressive DISTANCING from USAPA the west has adopted over the last 24 months, the lights begin to go on...

As I said, good luck with the conflicting evidence that will pop you in the forehead...and the judges, too.

V1 Cut,

Please look at a calendar and learn the facts before you push the power up.

USAPA became the legal bargaining agent April 18, 2008. NOT 24 months ago.

I was in the court room when the judge heard this case. This judge is fully aware of the lack of representation and outright hostility that USAPA has shown towards the west. Oh yes the lights are on quite bright around judge Wake. No need to worry.

You and USAPA may try and lay it off as a “perceived unfairnessâ€￾ but all you have to do is read the judge’s order. There was absolutely no parsing of words in his brief. He understands exactly what has happened.

But if you chose to ignore the facts it will be you who will be surprised and disappointed by the results of the judges ruling. You might what to start saving up. As the judge said the union and/or the company could be liable for some big money damages. The assessment could be a fairly large number. You do want to remain in good standing right?

 

[sharktooth]

1998 - US Shuttle - No

Actually, the US Shuttle pilots were offered DOH, shuttle DOH since they had signed away their EAL seniority when they became Trump. The EAL seniority was, per their own documents, only to be used to "order their Trump list" and not for anything else. Got it in writing.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Nope, it's not. Dues objector fees are for maintenance of the contract with the company. DFR is all about the responsibility of the union to represent all members of the craft/class fairly. That responsibility certainly includes representation in contract issues, but it's not limited to just that like dues objector fees.

Jim

You're wrong, of course. But I know it's politically incorrect to challenged the "Knower of All Things" here on the message boards.

Part of the job of administering the contract is the maintaining and defending of the contract itself. When the contract is under attack, from whatever source, the representation of members and germane payers is at risk.

Man, I hope when I retire from this job I will have a life that does not have me hanging around the airline electronic forums trying to insert myself into the business of a group that said "Adieu" so long ago. Go back to school. Go fishing. Go volunteer. Go get a life already.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Had Doug Parker done the right thing and the smart thing back in 2005, namely to extend immediate parity to the east pilots, this group would have done just about anything for him.

Had that been the case, it's possible that ALPA would still be on the property, the contract would be a done deal, and the Nic would be the list with C&R's to protect the east pilots.

 

[JoeLurker]

From the Judges order:

The Plaintiff West Pilots allege in Count One that US Airways breached its
collective bargaining agreement by furloughing West Pilots ahead of New Hires and
failing to furlough West Pilots and East Pilots according to the Nicolau Award. Present
application of the Nicolau Award requires a strained reading of the Transition Agreement
because the Transition Agreement expressly permits use of separate seniority lists during
separate operations.



Okay guys, here is what the Judge said......."the transition agreement expressly permits use of seperate seniority lists during seperate operations"

So lets assume, for just a minute here, that the Judge rules FOR the WEST pilots and says that USAPA did not represent them in a fair fashion. First, the way I read his interpretation, it does NOT automatically implement the NIC. He would simply rule that the WEST pilots were not represented fairly. We still have to have a single contract to implement the NIC, per the Transition Agreement.

IF this is the case, we are still where we are right now. NOTHING CHANGES! I really don't think the WEST pilots realize just how vehemintly against the NIC the EAST pilots are. There is NO way I would vote yes on any contract that contained the NIC..........PERIOD. I would rather live with LOA 93. And any contract they do come up with REQUIRES it to go out for pilot ratification.

Secondly, the NIC is just a LIST. It is not part of the contract. How you implement THE list is IN THE CONTRACT. If you read Sections 22 of both contracts, you will find the wording is completely different. So how shall USAPA word Section 22? Do you really think a Judge will get into contract negotiations?

Thirdly, IF the WEST prevails and the Judge agrees that they were not represented fairly, what damages will he award? NO ONE out WEST has been damaged in the least by USAPA. We are still operating under seperate operations according to the T/A. This T/A was agreed to by BOTH parties.....remember. And the Judge has said ......."the transition agreement expressly permits use of seperate seniority lists during seperate operations"

And finally, if you don't like USAPA, who would you pick? ALPA again? Do you think that would change anything? NOT! WE, you and me, are THE UNION! It does not matter what name is on the door be it ALPA, USAPA, or any other name you give it.

All this being said, where do we go from here? Because when it is all said and done, we still have to reach a contract that is acceptable to all the pilots. It MUST be voted on and approved by a majority of the pilots, regardless of what anybody says. Nobody can change that fact. And you still can't implement the NIC without a single contract.

So once again, where do we go from here?

 

[nic4us]

You're wrong, of course. But I know it's politically incorrect to challenged the "Knower of All Things" here on the message boards.

Part of the job of administering the contract is the maintaining and defending of the contract itself. When the contract is under attack, from whatever source, the representation of members and germane payers is at risk.

Man, I hope when I retire from this job I will have a life that does not have me hanging around the airline electronic forums trying to insert myself into the business of a group that said "Adieu" so long ago. Go back to school. Go fishing. Go volunteer. Go get a life already.

nyc,

the contract or should we say contracts are not being attacted. It is the CG&Ls that are in dispute, and I as an objector have no reponsibility to defend the very thing I am objecting to. So count me out of any assesment or germane dues for legal fees spent to defend the CB&Ls. I think an arbitrator will see it my way if the independant auditor does not.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Had Doug Parker done the right thing and the smart thing back in 2005, namely to extend immediate parity to the east pilots, this group would have done just about anything for him.

Had that been the case, it's possible that ALPA would still be on the property, the contract would be a done deal, and the Nic would be the list with C&R's to protect the east pilots.

I agree with most of your post. I always felt that Doug Parker's bad faith contract negotiations pre-Nicolau ended up biting him in the butt big time. As you pointed out, had the company been realistic in those negotiations (like Delta/Northwest), the joint contract might have already been ratified and simply awaiting the seniority arbitration and single certificate to be completed in order to take effect.

Assuming Nicolau would have presented his "award" in exactly the same way, there would actually be no C&R's to protect the east pilots. The change in Age 65 would have rendered those C&R's moot.

ALPA would still be on the property, and (my guess) at least 50% of the east f/o's would have resigned by now realizing that they had much greener grass on which to graze elsewhere. Certainly, most of the furloughees would not have returned, IMHO.

IF the courts do enshrine the Nicolau obscenity in the joint contract, I think we can still anticipate a large exodus from the east list, especially once the economy turns around and other flying opportunities return. In short order, all the Hawaii flying out of PHX will be staffed by former PSA pilots (and PSA flight attendants,) as will most of the other "good trips" out of PHX and LAS as the reality of Nicolau hits home. Selfishly, I will be happy to see all that super-horsepower head to PHX, knowing all the while that no one from PHX can affect my place on the list. Thank you, George N...but you're still a clueless mope.

 

[nycbusdriver]

So once again, where do we go from here?

Joe,

Your scenario is very plausible. The pilot group may very well be stalemated for years, maybe even a decade. On the other hand, once the Nicolau fight is over there may be enough support to get a contract ratified as the playing field will then be entirely changed. At that point the company will be completely in the driver's seat. They would have to offer some real incentive to get the east pilots to sign on, and, given the short-sightedness of the Tempe brain trust, I doubt that would happen.

My guess...no matter where Nic lands...we will be in contract negotiations for at least another 5 - 7 years, and maybe have self-help authorized in 2014 or 2015. This, of course, assumes that the Tempe brain trust hasn't run the company totally into the ground by then....another very plausible scenario given their track record.

 

[JoeLurker]

A question for the WEST....

Lets say for arguments sake, that AWAPA is the UNION and you are headquartered in PHX and all of the Reps are WEST guys. How would you handle this sitiuation? What would your remedy be?

Would you implement the NIC immediately? oops....can't do that can you. You still have to abide by the T/A don't you.

How would you handle seniority intergration if you were in charge? You still have the T/A and you still MUST have pilot ratification.

I have seen a LOT of WEST pilots complain about USAPA and how they are not being represented. What would you do knowing full well you MUST abide by the T/A and you MUST get a majority of the vote to pass a contract?

 

[nic4us]

JoeLurker,

Just my opinion here but the best place we could go would be to keep USAPA or at least in house with name change. Implement Nic with some added east protections( in particular I am thinking added widebody protection with a diminishing percentage held for east on existing ships for say 10-15 years). Bring east to west parity now with ongoing contract negotiations that get to new payscales in better economic times. Teach east how to use PBS bidding system and add a generic east-west no fly for those who are unable or unwilling to put all of this behind and fly together.

The alternative as you point out is continued status quo, You will not vote for a Nic contract and I will not vote for any not containing it. That TA that is in effect would still give separate ratification.

 

[nic4us]

nycbusdriver,

I would like to see former PSA coming to PHX. I have carried many, Mostly FA's on the cabin jumpseat and have found them to be exceptionally courteous and friendly. Shortening their commute would be great for their moral. I have absolutely no problem with the "realitiy of the Nic hitting home", thats all just part of honoring agreements and keeping my word.

 

[JoeLurker]

JoeLurker,

Just my opinion here but the best place we could go would be to keep USAPA or at least in house with name change. Implement Nic with some added east protections( in particular I am thinking added widebody protection with a diminishing percentage held for east on existing ships for say 10-15 years). Bring east to west parity now with ongoing contract negotiations that get to new payscales in better economic times. Teach east how to use PBS bidding system and add a generic east-west no fly for those who are unable or unwilling to put all of this behind and fly together.

The alternative as you point out is continued status quo, You will not vote for a Nic contract and I will not vote for any not containing it. That TA that is in effect would still give separate ratification.

We still have a problem here......you have not addressed the fact you need pilot ratifcation....not seperate ratification........both pilot groups as a whole must ratify.

What do you propose to get this?