US Pilot Labor Thread--11/16-23

[Pi brat]

We can discuss this "windfall" sometime if you'd like. Both the example I used (East pilot #847 on USAPA DOH list) and your example (East pilot #300 on some list) shows that the East pilot gained by going to PHX while pushing West pilots down. Maybe you can point out a single instance where a West pilot would gain from going to an East base? Or even gain from any East pilot going to PHX?


Nic got the 517 by adding up the Capt widebody jobs, the F/O widebody jobs, then putting non-active East pilots back in where they belonged per the East list. As I recall, it was something like 150 widebody captain jobs, 250 widebody F/O jobs, and the remainder the non-active (disability, supervisory, etc). Hence, the East widebody F/O jobs were protected for the 517, not East F/O's. Of course, it went away with passage of Age 65 retirement (which Nic had no way of knowing would pass or not) except those 517 are still at the top of the Nic list.

Jim

The west F/O slotted directly above me is younger than me, has never been a captain or a widebody F/O. I am currently a east captain, could be a secondary A330 F/O lineholder, 76I lineholder. So, if Nic was implemented tomorrow, that pilot could take any opening before me and for the rest of our careers, positions he never had the expectation of. Sounds like a windfall to me. A certain east captain that lives in SAN, but commutes to PHL, is chomping at the bit to get into PHX. He will probably be #1, something he had no expectation of with US Airways. Sounds like a windfall to me. If everyone was screaming about the others windfalls them maybe it would be fair.

The hand writing was on the wall about the age 60 rule changing, it was just a question of when. So, no F/O has any protection, but those in the top 517 got all the protection, and they didn't need it!

Of course you have the right to your opinion, it just stings to those that flew with you, and makes us question the basis for your reasoning. You have no dog in this fight , but continue to hammer away at us. If this had been a straight relative position I might be able to agree with you.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The first two contradictions that come to mind are Lance and Marshall, but they don't qualify.

If they did, I'd be tempted to agree with you except for one thing - Garland....

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Which part of "vacancy" don't you get, Jim?
IF, a vacancy goes unfilled, EAST or WEST...it can be bid for by the other side...however, by doing so, any "protected" positions are lost in a number commensurate with voluntary "bid-outs".

That's just the mechanics of how an East pilot gets to PHX/LAS, not the effect they have when they get there. Additionally, the C&R's present the possibility of other ways East pilots can get to PHX/LAS.

The rest of your question is answered by the age-old premise of "seniority".

Not, by DOH (strangely favored by the group that's been around the longest).

( I've been thinking you were up to speed on this kind of thing)

Apparently moreso than you...

leave it all as it was, and there's no harm, no foul.

Didn't you already say that a clear mechanism exists for East pilots to get to PHX/LAS? With the fruits of their DOH (not seniority) intact? Likewise, didn't you say that West pilots can bid East? At the cost of leaving their seniority behind and only having their DOH? How does that "leave it all as it was"?

Jim

 

[V1cut]

That's just the mechanics of how an East pilot gets to PHX/LAS, not the effect they have when they get there. Additionally, the C&R's present the possibility of other ways East pilots can get to PHX/LAS.



Not, by DOH (strangely favored by the group that's been around the longest).



Apparently moreso than you...



Didn't you already say that a clear mechanism exists for East pilots to get to PHX/LAS? With the fruits of their DOH (not seniority) intact? Likewise, didn't you say that West pilots can bid East? At the cost of leaving their seniority behind and only having their DOH? How does that "leave it all as it was"?

Jim

Oh, I could so do this all night with you Jim...it's so easy dealing with an "intellectual giant"..

Yes, there is a scenario whereby anyone who gets greedy will cause a bidding war..all based on vacancies (of course, you ignore that point...twice, and counting)..and as we all can plainly see, a bidding war will absolutely be won by the east, under USAPA or the NIC..which offers no such system protections.
I guess the word to the west would be this, be careful not to awaken the sleeping giant of east bidding capabilities, in either scenario....the numbers of sure winners are on the east in that game.
USAPA has tried to provide security against that very issue in the CR's...but the west can negate the protections, based on how they bid.

What else would you like to argue about, Jim?

Slow night at the bridge club?

 

[V1cut]

So, while the "Oracle" considers his response, I note that my question originally directed to a west pilot has gone un-answered, (Jim notwithstanding)...still waiting for the answer, how is the west's careers' being destroyed by USAPA?

(rhetorical)...it's not.

Unless you count the west winfall that USAPA is attempting to moderate.

To be clear from last night, westies don't have to "join" USAPA...but dues are not negotiable, as Parker illustrated.

And, as Mr. 25 year westie on the tape illustrated, he may be in a position where he's funding his lawsuit from 2 sides...

Appropriate dues to USAPA (full member or not, and his mounting west legal bills)...at least.

Sue away.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Oh, I could so do this all night with you Jim...it's so easy dealing with an "intellectual giant"..

Yes, there is a scenario whereby anyone who gets greedy will cause a bidding war..all based on vacancies (of course, you ignore that point...twice, and counting)..and as we all can plainly see, a bidding war will absolutely be won by the east, under USAPA or the NIC..which offers no such system protections.

I didn't ignore "vacancies" - are they not just the mechanism (or one of them) that allows East pilots to bid West? "Vacancies" are how most East pilots change job/bases in the East system and likewise for the West pilots - just a mechanism. The real issue is what happens when East pilots bid west - they stand to get "super seniority" that lets them hold better than they could back east.

Since USAPA's C&R's give West pilots no arms with which to fight a "bidding war" while the USAPA DOH list gives the East pilots the "nuclear option" in such a war, it would definitely be a one-sided "war". I can see the West threat now...."If you Easties come to PHX/LAS and take the top jobs away from us, we'll come to PHL/CLT/etc and take the bottom jobs away from you." Yes, indeed, a terrifying threat that would be....

However, under NIC the two sides are armed about equally (the 517 being the exception). At the time of the merger (which is the point in time that Nic was created for) an East A320 captain could go west and be an A320 captain while a West A320 captain could come east and be an A320 Captain.

I guess the word to the west would be this, be careful not to awaken the sleeping giant of east bidding capabilities, in either scenario....the numbers of sure winners are on the east in that game.

Somehow I suspect that most East pilots are well aware where they would fit in the West under USAPA's list. They'll be the invading army, no action by the Westies required.

USAPA has tried to provide security against that very issue in the CR's...but the west can negate the protections, based on how they bid.

As I've said before, the USAPA C&R's are a fence holding the Westies in rather than keeping Easties out. West only loses. The only question is "How fast".

What else would you like to argue about, Jim?

I'd prefer to discuss, but argue seems to be all many are capable of when someone disagrees with their position. You still haven't answered my two questions....how about we start there? Or would you rather just continue deflecting to other areas because the answers don't fit your little "DOH is fair" world?

Jim

 

[Metroyet]

I guess the word to the west would be this, be careful not to awaken the sleeping giant of east bidding capabilities, in either scenario....the numbers of sure winners are on the east in that game.

More Scary threats of Tyranny... from the MAJORITY! How's that been working out for you guys anyway? Two to one advantage and still payed like a BK commuter airline? How's that contract coming along? Well I'm sure with 35 West members, (largest base) in good standing, (most of whom are AOL and AWAPPA principals), I'm sure you'll be revisiting the days of parity plus 1% any day now.

How frustrating it must be to be laughed at and continually marginalized by all interested parties. Management thinks you're a Joke, The West thinks you're a Joke, Judge Wake thinks you're a Joke, Nicolau thinks you're a Joke, The other neutrals think you're a joke, and the vast majority of other, (informed) professional pilots think you're a joke.

Is the BPR having a collective flashback of getting swirlies and atomic wedgies from grade school yet?

Good Luck firing the non-dues payer now. The company has been put on notice that if there is any evidence of collusion found during the discovery phase, it will be paying damages through the nose. Hmmm. The company openly admits that there was never any legitimate method for a west pilot to join the union...effectively admitting that the West was thrown under the bus, YET STILL met with USAPA to negotiate a new contract when they themselves admitted the west was unfairly disadvantaged? Sounds like collusion to me... and USAPA thinks the company is going to start ending West Careers at the request of USAPA in light of Judge Wakes ruling? Sure. The bell tolls for thee USAPA.

V1, Keep up the Scary tough talk. It's amusing.

 

[V1cut]

While this has been entertaining, (thanks Jim) I have a pressing social "engagement"...don't wait up.

I'll say this, as energetic as the westies are with a puff of wind from the judge... the facts are these:

NWA/DAL s going down the same road we are on...UAL is/will coerce ALPA to amend (again) the merger policy to reflect the "new reality"...

You westies can cluck all day, we have a court date...

see you there.

I'm off ....to softer pastures.

 

[73320]

While this has been entertaining, (thanks Jim) I have a pressing social "engagement"...don't wait up.

I'll say this, as energetic as the westies are with a puff of wind from the judge... the facts are these:

NWA/DAL s going down the same road we are on...UAL is/will coerce ALPA to amend (again) the merger policy to reflect the "new reality"...

You westies can cluck all day, we have a court date...

see you there.

I'm off ....to softer pastures.

I think we can all agree this means that you are incapable of answering his questions, or discussing and rebutting his views. It seems that taking shots at the messenger rather than articulating a contrary scenario is all you folks are capable of doing at this time.

 

[73320]

Of course you have the right to your opinion, it just stings to those that flew with you, and makes us question the basis for your reasoning. You have no dog in this fight , but continue to hammer away at us. If this had been a straight relative position I might be able to agree with you.

Pi,

You appear to be the most intelligent one from your side as you try to debate rather than discredit. I imagine if I were in your shoes I too would feel the sting. Seems to me this situation has come about because we cant imagine what our views would be if we switched costumes. As a west Capt. I think that prior to the Nic, if we were proposed with having east heavies fenced until there are no more east to fly them, new heavies open to bid, east attrition protected for east pilots say 80%, or 90%, including a DOH bidding for east domiciles and relative bid for west domiciles, the west pilots would have concluded it to be a reasonable accomadation to this situation.

Reasonable adults can easily come up with reasonable solutions to seemingly difficult or insurmountable problems. Somehow that is not our reality. It is now difficult for me to envision a merged list ever happening. It is also becoming more difficult to envision this company being around in 12-18 months. I have often wondered if we all would not be better off if we liquidated. I think all of the East FO's would be far better off if the company liquidated 5 years ago. Many would be Captains at Continental, Jet Blue,Southwest etc.. and have much better seniority (by giving up AAA DOH) and prospects. I am considering myself to now be dragged into that sceanrio.

Good Luck to everyone!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Sorry Pi - I didn't see this post until after it was quoted by someone else. For some reason when I make a post, the little icon that takes one to new posts in the tread skips those posted while I was typing up a reply/post and goes directly to the next post after mine.

The west F/O slotted directly above me is younger than me, has never been a captain or a widebody F/O. I am currently a east captain, could be a secondary A330 F/O lineholder, 76I lineholder. So, if Nic was implemented tomorrow, that pilot could take any opening before me and for the rest of our careers, positions he never had the expectation of.

First, you've got to remember the date that Nic was charged with using for merging the lists. Go back to that date and see how much your position differed from that West pilot.

By looking at the effect of the Nic list today, you're including post-merger events - the ex-ATA 757's, the ETOPs mods on East 757's, the 190's, etc. Possibly even the furlough of West pilots. Because East has made out much better than West post-merger, any comparison today is skewed because of those post-merger changes. You're saying "Because I benefited from these changes, the guy ahead of me on the Nic is getting a windfall." His (her) windfall is only a windfall if you include those post-merger changes and the benefit you got from them - meaning you got a windfall because they weren't shared with the West.

The hand writing was on the wall about the age 60 rule changing, it was just a question of when.

It may have been on the wall, but it was awfully faint and smeared. Nobody could say "On this date the retirement age will change."

So, no F/O has any protection, but those in the top 517 got all the protection, and they didn't need it!

Under Nic, correct with possibly very few exceptions - are there any "career F/O's" in that 517?

What it boils down to is that there were (and are) several ways to give East widebody protection. One was the way Nic did it, which fit with the way he integrated the rest of the list - by jobs. East had widebody jobs and West didn't, so widebody slots were given to East pilots before he got to the common equipment.

Another way is the one you suggested - start integrating the lists from the top with some ratio equal to the ratio of active pilots on each side but allow only East pilots to bid the widebody jobs for some period of time. The biggest problems there are splitting apart the 767 from 757 jobs on the East side (forcing the company to make them separate bids runs afoul of one of the company's criteria for a combined list) and using one ratio for integrating the lists doesn't fit reality - the ratio of 757 jobs would be different than the ratio 737/A320 jobs.

Of course you have the right to your opinion, it just stings to those that flew with you, and makes us question the basis for your reasoning. You have no dog in this fight , but continue to hammer away at us. If this had been a straight relative position I might be able to agree with you.

My reasoning is simple and I've expressed it several times - if you could put the integrated list into effect on the date it was designed for (ALPA's PID, in the case of Nic) and let everyone bid anywhere their new seniority number would allow (a system flush, in other words), nearly everyone would be doing the same thing as the day before - no one gains and no one loses except those that desire the new bases the merger made available to them. Those that saw a slight difference would be those on the edge, so to speak - on the edge of holding bigger equipment, on the edge of being bumped to smaller equipment, on the edge of holding Captain, on the edge of losing Captain. You'd probably see no more difference than you currently see between East bases - able to hold Capt in LGA but not CLT, able to hold blockholder in DCA but not PHL, etc. What you wouldn't have is junior F/O's (or even furloughed non-MDA pilots) suddenly senior to Captains from the other side or vice versa, like you do with a DOH list.

The whole "DOH = seniority" thing is silly to me and for the life of me I can't understand how any East pilot could put forward that idea. Just look at the seniority ups and downs experienced by East pilots the years while the amount of time lapsed since DOH only moved in one direction - increasing every day. How anybody can say that a constantly increasing value - time since hired - can equate seniority which varies both up and down is beyond my comprehension except for one factor...it favors those that have been around the longest and progressed the least for that time spent over those who haven't been around as long and progressed faster. What it says to me is "You young punks (to borrow from EastUS) don't deserve what you've gotten so we'll take it away and give it to those on our side who are more entitled to it."

Jim

 

[nostradamus]

Good Luck firing the non-dues payer now. The company has been put on notice that if there is any evidence of collusion found during the discovery phase, it will be paying damages through the nose. Hmmm. The company openly admits that there was never any legitimate method for a west pilot to join the union...effectively admitting that the West was thrown under the bus,

You are starting to celebrate early, as usual. Yes you have to contribute to USAPA. Both sides will have their say . Patience. The comment about a legitimate method for west to join, is wrong. There was no mention of an injunction on payments. "a lot of moving parts here."

 

[nycbusdriver]

I think we can all agree this means that you are incapable of answering his questions, or discussing and rebutting his views. It seems that taking shots at the messenger rather than articulating a contrary scenario is all you folks are capable of doing at this time.

I think the reality is that we are all just wasting bandwidth here anyway. Why make the effort? We've rehashed EVERYTHING a gazillion times; no one has changed their opinion; now the federal courts have control of the situation; no one, including real and self-imagined lawyers who post here, knows how things will play out.

Both sides are paying lawyers a lot of money to litigate these cases. I doubt they come to the USAviation.com message boards for ideas.

Why bother, people? Why not just let this thing play out? All our posturing, pontificating and bluster is wasted effort.

 

[Megasnoop]

I think the reality is that we are all just wasting bandwidth here anyway. Why make the effort? We've rehashed EVERYTHING a gazillion times; no one has changed their opinion; now the
Why bother, people? Why not just let this thing play out? All our posturing, pontificating and bluster is wasted effort.

Right on, NY.

SNOOP OUT!

 

[Freighterguynow]

Pi,

As a west Capt. I think that prior to the Nic, if we were proposed with having east heavies fenced until there are no more east to fly them, new heavies open to bid, east attrition protected for east pilots say 80%, or 90%, including a DOH bidding for east domiciles and relative bid for west domiciles, the west pilots would have concluded it to be a reasonable accomadation to this situation.

That is a solution that just might work.