US Pilot Labor Thread--11/16-23

[sharktooth]

The Retirement Committee advised the MEC years before the first bankruptcy that they should consider freezing the plan.

The MEC, controlled by John Davis, refused.

One, Davis never "controlled" the MEC. Witness his failed efforts to get "Metro-Jet" called a "b-scale", among other issues.

Two, why ever would a Retirement Committee advise an MEC to freeze a retirement plan "years before" a bankruptcy? and, what happened to you and your friends on the MEC when the company put no money in the retirement plan for five years? Why did not your MEC friends act when the company asked to freeze "the plan" as there was a group on the MEC who preferred termination to a freeze.

Fact is, the MEC forgot who they were.

 

[exB717Flyer]

I anticipate there will be repucussions from the East.

You mean like a re-activation of your CIRP? Another decert drive? Shut the place down? We're shaking in our boots.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Biggest winner in all of this? Not usapa, that's for sure.

It's $eham.

Another big time Ka ching coming his way!!!

This guy needs to update his Christmas card list to include the Honorable Judge Wake.

 

[ableoneable]

At the last session, the West was also asked to make modifications, they declined.

I am not sure what you are referencing when you speak of the "last session". If you are referring to the last session before arbitrator Nicolau, you are incorrect. The west indicated they were very willing to modify their last position and resume negotiating. This was predicated on the east also expressing a willingness to move off of their original position, which the east told the arbitrator they were unwilling to do.

At the Wye River conference, after the flawed award, West declined to make modifications. The result, West furloughs and separate ops.

First of all the award was flawed only in your eyes. You present this adjective as though it was generally accepted and both sides felt that continued negotiations were appropriate and desirable.

Yes the west felt there was no need to negotiate with themselves, which is what the east was asking.

The east opened with DOH at negotiations, they stayed on this position until the last day of arbitration and when the arbitrator did not accept their position in total the east cried foul.

Then the east pressured ALPA national to re-open negotiations and they again presented their original DOH proposal with a demand that the west "negotiate" by abandoning the arbitrated award and accept the original east DOH proposal as an inevitable truth.

Not quite the picture you paint.

 

[Metroyet]

A simple reminder. As I stated last week, USAPA hiding behind the RLA is like a Hippo Hiding being a Mushroom...AN EASY KILL.


Keep paying those dues...suckers.

If the East Called Nic. a "senile old man", what defamatory words are reserved for Judge Wake?

When in doubt, blame someone else. (USAPA Creed)

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (nostradamus @ Nov 20 2008, 07:52 PM)
I anticipate there will be repucussions from the East.
You mean like a re-activation of your CIRP? Another decert drive? Shut the place down? We're shaking in our boots."

Umm..Just FYI...(whether you're "shaking in our boots"/rabidly frothing at the mouth/the usual BS/whatever)...The line "I anticipate there will be repurcussions from the East." as well as "the west should not be gloating" were posted by Aquagreen, one of your own fellows, just after the nic was announced, and not by Nos or any east person. It's generally inadvisable to chase one's own tail in circles, but hey..have fun as you wish.

 

[cleardirect]

However, at the time of the merger, US Airways had dim economic prospects. The company was insolvent and operating in bankruptcy reorganization, and it had 1,751 pilots on furlough status. America West, by contrast, was in stronger financial condition, and all of its pilots were on active status. The arbitrator concluded that the superior employment prospects of the West Pilots justified a
Case 2:08-cv-01633-NVW Document 84 Filed 11/20/2008 Page 4 of 24
superior position in the seniority list. At the same time, he declined to give the West Pilots the full seniority that they requested. On December 20, 2007, US Airways accepted this seniority list.

This is a quote from judge Wakes’ order. I hope that we can put to rest the argument that the east was not in that bad of financial shape and that the west was soon going bankrupt.

Judge Wake is a former bankruptcy judge with a very good understanding of complex financial issues.

Mr. Nicolau also understood the financial situation during the merger. So please read and understand what now two independent people have said about this situation. Do not continue to make up your own reality, or listen to some crew room theory about US Airways was not in that bad of shape. That somehow it was just to get rid of your pension and improve the contract bargaining position or whatever. That there was money coming in the back door that was being kept a secret.

US Airways east was on the brink of liquation. Your pre-merger career expectations were to look for another job. No insult intended those are the facts as the exist.

 

[fodase]

Here are a few quotes from the order:

"However, at the time of the merger, US Airways ....was insolvent and operating in bankruptcy reorganization......America West, by contrast, was in stronger financial condition, and ALL of it's pilots were on active status". (NO more spin left on that point)

"In this case, however, the allegations state in specific terms that the union has taken impermissable measures to avoid representing West pilots fairly"

"A union breaches this duty when its conduct toward a member is arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith". (I guess Theur might need a plan B afterall)

"Irrespective of whether seniority rights "vest" in a propietary sense, a union may not arbitrarily abridge those rights AFTER a merger soley for the sake of political expediency".

"....the unions position flies against the headwind of cases from other circuts". "The DC Circut has held that a union breaches its duty of fair representaion when it arbitrarily adopts and announces a bargaining policy on seniority merger motivated only be a desire to win the votes of a majority of the employees".

"even more to the point, the Seventh Circut has rejected in dictum the defense that USAPA offers for its conduct".

"ALPA's arbitration system met a demand for FINALITY and FAIRNESS in a contentious labor environment".

The judge cited a Supreme Court dictum that states in part....."We think that Congress, in enacting the Railway Labor Act and authorizing a labor union, chosen by the majority of the craft, to represent the craft, did not intend to confer plenary power upon the union to sacrifice, for the the benefit of its members, rights of the minority of the craft, without imposing on it any duty to protect the minority".

""Minority rights imply a limitation on rights of the majority....the union majority may not discriminate against certain members without a rational basis for doing so, grounded in the aggregate welfare of its employees".

In a footnote on page 13...."on this point, counsel for USAPA is admonished that unpublished dispositions and orders of the Ninth Circut issued before January 1, 2007, are not precedent and may not be cited to the courts of this circut".


This thing goes on and on...but the clif notes are this:

We have a case...a GOOD case. No injunction...YET, but he reservres the right for the future. The judge has serious questions as to the legality of how USAPA was formed. The company is NOT off the hook, although he dismissed their part of the case, he reserves the right to once again name them if, during discovery or future events he thinks collution has occurred. (I bet Bular is erasing his hard drive as I type)

He doesn't think much of seeham, or USAPA's thinly veiled discrimination.

 

[Elevation]

Every east pilot should read what the judge laid down and decide to stop financing this legal disaster. There must be a few smart ones over there right? How many cases must you lose and legal fees must you flush down the drain before you see the light? Bradford and Seeham are like Thelma and Louise who can't turn back and are headed for the cliff, east guys with a brain get out of the car! The east pilots maybe on the hook for big damages that could financially hurt east pilots personally because USAPA won't be able to cover it. You have 2 cases coming, a class action(US Superior Court of AZ) and the DFR (in US district court) prepare yourselves accordingly.

 

[electricjet98]

You have 2 cases coming, a class action(US Superior Court of AZ) and the DFR (in US district court) prepare yourselves accordingly.

Don't forget the counter-suit that the Cactus 18 is considering. Ane perhaps AWAPPA should be considering their own RICO conspiracy suit against the USAPA BPR. Hmmmm...treble damages?

 

[Pilot692]

The Retirement Committee advised the MEC years before the first bankruptcy that they should consider freezing the plan.

The MEC, controlled by John Davis, refused.


Horse hockey! "Years before".....yeah....that's the ticket...... years before, the plan was hitting it's minimum funding numbers under ERISA.

Next trolley departing for Revisionism Street in 10 minutes..............

 

[nycbusdriver]

...that USAPA has breached its duty by deliberately delaying the
single collective bargaining agreement ...

This should be an interesting argument. In how many instances has the company made their team available for contract negotiation where USAPA refused to meet (thereby delaying the negotiations?)

ZERO

 

[cubfan]

The Retirement Committee advised the MEC years before the first bankruptcy that they should consider freezing the plan.

The MEC, controlled by John Davis, refused.

I just last week flew with a member of the Retirement Comm. at that time, we had a nice talk across the pond. It was quite lengthy as he tried to put things into perspective for my simple mind. Closer to BK1 they figured out the pension could be in trouble, they approached the company about freezing of the plan. The plan had to be whole so that all future payments could be met. The company offered around 30 mil. to make this happen. They approached the MEC with this info. but they did not feel the info. was accurate and thus voted the freezing down. So we are now left with the PBGC payment. What concerns me now is what if or when the auto industry dumps their pensions, my payment could be affected because of the huge commitments moving forward. Thanks to the then MEC, and they wonder why they were voted out. This is the type of info. that needs to be shared with the group always, not to simply not share vital info because they fear what the group may think. Tell it like it is good or bad and let us decide.

 

[Freighterguynow]

As the Empire/Shuttle pilots lawsuit progresses through the system, we except more bad news for the USAPA.

This is a class action according to the Fed. R. Civ. P. 23 by the Plaintiffs to enjoin the Defendants to place the Plaintiffs in their proper place on the USAirways pilot seniority list. Their proper place will recognize their full seniority rights and privileges. Their proper place is according to their date of hire at the USAirways predecessor airlines of Empire Airlines and Eastern Airlines


They are suing to reorder the list for DOH.

 

[nycbusdriver]

This is a class action according to the Fed. R. Civ. P. 23 by the Plaintiffs to enjoin the Defendants to place the Plaintiffs in their proper place on the USAirways pilot seniority list. Their proper place will recognize their full seniority rights and privileges. Their proper place is according to their date of hire at the USAirways predecessor airlines of Empire Airlines and Eastern Airlines


They are suing to reorder the list for DOH.

The Shuttle pilots may be stepping on their own "member" if this succeeds. Not ONE of them was on the Eastern Airlines seniority list after they resigned their position to go to the TRUMP Shuttle (separate company from Eastern with a separate operating certificate.) USAir did not acquire the any portion of Eastern Airlines, they acquired the Trump Shuttle. I'm not sure of the date of incorporation of the Trump Shuttle, but it would be ludicrous to argue a DOH based on a resigned position and which predates the existence of your the employer which was acquired. Should be interesting.

Their argument, of course, will be that Trump recognized their Eastern DOH. That's fine (sounds like DOH was a bargaining position?) Does that mean I can start a new Part 121 carrier tomorrow and give all my employees a DOH of December 17, 1903 (Kitty Hawk) and then when bought out, expect the acquiring company to give credence to that DOH? Same argument the Shuttle pilots are making, simply different degree.

And the Empire pilots might have a better argument, except that their DOH started when they were Part 135 flying Navajos and Metros. That will become and apples vs. oranges argument. This will then open the door toe Piedmont Aviation part 135 types looking for their DOH, as well as the wholly-owned commuter types who later went to mainline looking for the same thing. I doubt the judge will open that can of worms.