US Pilot Labor Thread--11/16-23

[nostradamus]

Order is out. If you're the company, you're quite happy. If you're a West pilot, you're almost as happy as the company. If you're a uSap . . . stand by for another Nic disappointment.

A trial is coming right after X-mas. The grand uSap experiment is about to become a spectacular failure. Now it's looking like you'll get Nic and LOA 93 ad infinitum. Congrats all.

aquagreen73s post on May 3, 2007 below;

aquagreen73s
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Posted on: May 3 2007, 08:41 PM


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Overall, this is clearly a "victory" for the West, but not one where the West should be gloating. I anticipate there will be repucussions from the East. I think Doug is about to find out why mergers have a heavy price - a price that a number cruncher will never recognize until reality hits him square in the head.

What the heck...things were not rosy at AWA anyway. A BK was probably inevitable and all the merger did is delay the instability. From what I can tell from this list, Doug had better be prepared for some venting on the East side.
Forum: US Airways · Post Preview: #482125 · Replies: 391 · Views: 39,237

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Get that gem of wisdom while looking for the profits that US was rolling in during the late 90's?

Do a little research instead of assuming that everything said by someone you disagree with is wrong, and you'll find that the RASM differences between HP, US, and LCC track with the differences in CASM. It's the relationship of RASM (all op revenue, not just pax revenue) to CASM that's important. Routes with RASM that made them profitable at HP's CASM are unprofitable at LCC's CASM. Likewise there are routes that produce RASM to be profitable at LCC's CASM wouldn't be profitable at US' CASM. Fuel cost increases have certainly affected the profitability of some routes on both sides, but it's the merger that has made the big difference.

After all, if the East routes are so profitable, why did US go through BK twice and stand on the verge of collapse? If West routes are so unprofitable, why was HP not in BK?

Jim

I don't disagree. It's just that you are plainly biased.

To answer your question, US was in chapter 11 twice because of POOR MANAGEMENT. AWA has been there, as well.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I don't disagree. It's just that you are plainly biased.

When it comes to integrating seniority lists, I have my opinions. You call it bias because they disagree with your opinions.

However, there are facts backing up my position on why route cuts occurred as they did. There, you (and many others) are clearly biased - taking a position without basis in fact.

Jim

 

[nostradamus]

Order is out. If you're the company, you're quite happy. If you're a West pilot, you're almost as happy as the company. If you're a uSap . . . stand by for another Nic disappointment.

A trial is coming right after X-mas. The grand uSap experiment is about to become a spectacular failure. Now it's looking like you'll get Nic and LOA 93 ad infinitum. Congrats all.

Famous quotes of auquagreen on this message board: more to follow. You can research this info yourself on www.usavition.com. I you do not have the time I will be doing this for you in the next few days. Soon you will be able to visit my website, I am a hypocrite.com. No such site now but in the making.

Oct 11/ 2005

“MDA pilots have NOTHING to worry about. The airlines will be out of the suit quickly and leave ALPO alone in the fight. De-wayne and cronies are too busy collecting half million dollar salaries and compensation to afford to fight this. The only weak party here is ALPO and they are ripe for a severe legal ass kicking. Go for it MDA pilots!â€￾


October 13, 2005

“I'm amazed by the widespread misconception as to how seniority lists are built. It's longevity...always has been, always will be. Even when the AFA talks "DOH," that's commoner slang for what is really "longevity." Even their seniority list has been based on longevity so for them to now say "date of hire" means they are asking for a seniority list which didn't even exist on their side. Clearly, that is senseless. And to reiterate, even if pilots did have the same merger language as the AFA, it would really be a merger based on longevity. DOH is about as valuable as monopoly money. It means nothing on both U's and AWA's seniority lists. Vacations are determined by longevity. Pay is determined on longevity. Seniority is based on longevity: e.g. a 30 year employee is ahead of a one year employee...even though it's theoretically possible the two were hired together! Not going to happen though, for other reasons such as medical retirement. But that illustrates how seniority is determined. And it's not the actual date you showed up on the property, but the time accrued since showing up on the property and wearing the uniform.â€￾

 

[EastUS]

October 13, 2005

“I'm amazed by the widespread misconception as to how seniority lists are built. It's longevity...always has been, always will be. Even when the AFA talks "DOH," that's commoner slang for what is really "longevity." ......Vacations are determined by longevity. Pay is determined on longevity. Seniority is based on longevity: e.g. a 30 year employee is ahead of a one year employee...even though it's theoretically possible the two were hired together! Not going to happen though, for other reasons such as medical retirement. But that illustrates how seniority is determined. And it's not the actual date you showed up on the property, but the time accrued since showing up on the property and wearing the uniform.â€￾

“I'm amazed by the widespread misconception as to how seniority lists are built. It's longevity...always has been, always will be." ??? :blink: ???

Well Nos..that was clearly written well before the West Reformation, nay..more properly, The great Renaissance and Enlightenment era under the auspices of St Nic.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Nos,
First off, you have way too much time on your hands... Secondly, I'll admit I am not the sharpest tool in the shed but I fail to see the hypocrisy in those two quotes by Aqua. Even if there is hypocrisy there to be seen, it certainly does not rise to the level you seem to want to suggest. In addition, what does that have to do with the main quote of the post? The one regarding the Judges ruling today...

It does not appear to lend any credibility when the subject of your posts lack congruency.

 

[nostradamus]

Nos,
First off, you have way too much time on your hands... Secondly, I'll admit I am not the sharpest tool in the shed but I fail to see the hypocrisy in those two quotes by Aqua. Even if there is hypocrisy there to be seen, it certainly does not rise to the level you seem to want to suggest. In addition, what does that have to do with the main quote of the post? The one regarding the Judges ruling today...

It does not appear to lend any credibility when the subject of your posts lack congruency.

I have just quoted the poster, I did not try to put words in their mouth, I put the words on this board after they left their mouth. I rely on the intelligence of the reader, not the poster, to process the information. The reader should decide where to file it, relying on their respective intelligence and experience.

 

[Tiger 1050]

I have just quoted the poster, I did not try to put words in their mouth, I put the words on this board after they left their mouth. I rely on the intelligence of the reader, not the poster, to process the information. The reader should decide where to file it, relying on their respective intelligence and experience.

Like I said... You are reaching.

But then that is all you seem to ever do...

 

[EastUS]

Nos,
First off, you have way too much time on your hands... Secondly, I'll admit I am not the sharpest tool in the shed but I fail to see the hypocrisy in those two quotes by Aqua. Even if there is hypocrisy there to be seen, it certainly does not rise to the level you seem to want to suggest.

Well sir...I, for one, would honestly be most interested in hearing any explanation for how the following philospohy, (which I personally find to be sound), can be twisted into anything at all accepting of the Nic's product. Aquagreen: "Seniority is based on longevity: e.g. a 30 year employee is ahead of a one year employee...even though it's theoretically possible the two were hired together! Not going to happen though, for other reasons such as medical retirement. But that illustrates how seniority is determined. And it's not the actual date you showed up on the property, but the time accrued since showing up on the property and wearing the uniform.â€￾

Umm.."the time accrued since showing up on the property and wearing the uniform.â€￾ = Seniority? Agreed by me, but nowhere representative of the nic, nor the west's position in any way.

 

[nostradamus]

I fail to see the hypocrisy in those two quotes by Aqua. Even if there is hypocrisy there to be seen, it certainly does not rise to the level you seem to want to suggest.

No further questions your honor.

 

[Tiger 1050]

No further questions your honor.

Reach! Reach! You've almost got something!

 

[traderjake]

Actually, sir, according to the Buttman, the company only first approached the MEC in the summer prior to retirement termination with a proposal to "freeze" the plan. I asked, what did the MEC (sans Davis) say (Davis had been retired for several years by then). Buttman said, the MEC did not respond, at all.

The Retirement Committee advised the MEC years before the first bankruptcy that they should consider freezing the plan.

The MEC, controlled by John Davis, refused.

 

[traderjake]

From www.USAPAWATCH.com

USAPA has expended considerable effort trying to convince the US Airways pilots that their DOH list with conditions and restrictions is fair. Now that we have a neutrals ruling, we thought it would be prudent to publish the Honorable Judge Wake's opinion on the list. Below is an excerpt from his November 20, 2008 Order: (bold print added by TheEye for emphasis)



"USAPA’s Constitution declares its objective “[t]o maintain uniform principles of

seniority based on date of hire and the perpetuation thereof, with reasonable conditions

and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations.â€￾ To this end,

USAPA has convened a merger committee made up of twelve East Pilots and no West

Pilots. This committee has formulated a date-of-hire seniority policy, which includes

certain conditions and restrictions but is greatly more favorable to the East Pilots,

including those East Pilots on furlough at the time of the merger, than the Nicolau Award.

The conditions and restrictions do not eliminate or counterbalance the relative

disadvantage the date-of-hire policy poses to the West Pilots. The chairman of the

committee testified that the policy was designed to address the pre-merger career

expectations of each pilot group, but he also admitted on cross-examination that he never

considered the impact that this policy would have on the West Pilots. The chairman also

admitted that in formulating the policy, he gave no consideration to the relative financial

condition of each of the merging airlines, or to the fact that many East Pilots were on

furlough status at the time of the merger. The date-of-hire policy was submitted to US

Airways on September 30, 2008, but US Airways has not yet responded."

Posted by TheEye at 11/20/2008 11:16 PM | Add Comment
Judge Wake issues ruling

Today Judge Wake issued his ruling and the news is not good for USAPA. Judge Wake has taken jurisdiction of the case but gave management a pass by declining to issue an injunction. Late this afternoon USAPA issued a statement that they are studying the order and will publish a more detailed update at a later time. In other words, USAPA has gone into full spin mode and is trying to find a way to turn a devestating ruling for the Association into a positive.

We share no happiness watching our pilot group self destruct at the hands of a greedy and selfish self appointed leadership. They have completely destroyed any hopes of ever unifying this pilot group.

As the Empire/Shuttle pilots lawsuit progresses through the system, we except more bad news for the USAPA.

We encourage all US Airways pilots to rise up and challenge this group of thugs that are destroying our airline, our careers, and our sense of honor. Their stated goals are simply unattainable and they only inflict more damage with each passing day.

 

[toganoflex]

aquagreen73s post on May 3, 2007 below;


Overall, this is clearly a "victory" for the West, but not one where the West should be gloating. I anticipate there will be repucussions from the East. I think Doug is about to find out why mergers have a heavy price - a price that a number cruncher will never recognize until reality hits him square in the head.

What the heck...things were not rosy at AWA anyway. A BK was probably inevitable and all the merger did is delay the instability. From what I can tell from this list, Doug had better be prepared for some venting on the East side.
Forum: US Airways · Post Preview: #482125 · Replies: 391 · Views: 39,237

This is great stuff.

Please keep posting this stuff so the company can use it in discovery.

Good work smart guy!

 

[toganoflex]

One of many gems that I'm sure will make its way onto this forum.

The claim against USAPA is ripe for adjudication. At least in these circumstances,
what USAPA calls a mere “bargaining positionâ€￾ can be the subject of a fair representation
claim.3 It satisfies the constitutional case or controversy requirement to allege, as the
Plaintiff West Pilots have, that USAPA has breached its duty by deliberately delaying the
single collective bargaining agreement in order to frustrate its pre-existing obligation to
the minority and thereby causing injury to the West Pilots in the form of ongoing
furloughs and other detriments.

Translation - A DFR lawsuit is on deck with a bench trial expected to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees paid for in EAST dues money and an imminent assessment.

Also included is the possibility of monetary damages paid to the west furloughees by USAPA (and possibly the company if collusion is found during discovery.)

Empire-Shuttle lawsuit that has no merit. I've noticed that USAPA can't seem to win anything that has no merit.

Contract cram-down coming because USAPA has no leverage to use against the company so they are instead looking for minimal gains in exchange for a shorter duration.

Paying legal fees to the tune of thousands of dollars per hour for loss after loss.

West pilots not paying a dime of shop fees.

I've got to rest.