US Pilot Labor Thread--11/16-23

[Metroyet]

As 88 said, it's been in its entirety on the USAPA legal links.

In putting ALL of the legal documents online for the membership, they've certainly taken that particular wind out of the sails of a lot of windy posts here.

I guess I missed it. I'm glad it's there. Everybody needs to be on the same page, reading the same information.

 

[ableoneable]

http://www.awappa.org/forum/attachment.php...mp;d=1227243244

Link to the complete order.

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (nostradamus @ Nov 20 2008, 07:52 PM)
aquagreen73s post on May 3, 2007 below;


Overall, this is clearly a "victory" for the West, but not one where the West should be gloating. I anticipate there will be repucussions from the East. I think Doug is about to find out why mergers have a heavy price - a price that a number cruncher will never recognize until reality hits him square in the head.

What the heck...things were not rosy at AWA anyway. A BK was probably inevitable and all the merger did is delay the instability. From what I can tell from this list, Doug had better be prepared for some venting on the East side.
Forum: US Airways · Post Preview: #482125 · Replies: 391 · Views: 39,237

This is great stuff.

Please keep posting this stuff so the company can use it in discovery.

Good work smart guy!

"This is great stuff." Indeed it is, since it clearly demonstrates that, prior to the post-nic insanity out west, even some of the now most fervid supporters of nic actually understand the real meaning of seniority....even though those now conveniently and entirely dismiss their own honestly held beliefs in favor of pure self interest. Hmm..can we all join hands and have an "INTEGRITY MATTERS" moment here? 😉

"Please keep posting this stuff so the company can use it in discovery." No need to fret, as there's plenty more of such west thoughts where that came from.

 

[pilotn79]

US Airways east was on the brink of liquation. Your pre-merger career expectations were to look for another job. No insult intended those are the facts as the exist.

How true that is....

 

[EastUS]

Yes they are.

They are suing to reorder the east list. As it has been pointed out many, many, many times here. We do not have a joint contract yet. So the two lists are still separate. Therefore If the Empire/Trump suit is successful. As it should be because USAPA campaigned and operates as a DOH union. Then the east list will be reordered by DOH then reinserted back into the Nicolau award.

Let me see if I've got this right: The east list can be redone, since no joint joint contract exists? Said revision to be driven purely by DOH....but; the east list, as used by Nic, will then (in it's re-ordered and thusly brand new form) be inserted into nic?..and...ummm...errr... this actually makes sense to you on some level? I'm a wee bit confused here..but..Sigh..just pass me some of that fine southwestern peyote pardner

 

[cleardirect]

clear,

I'm not sure how you can have part DOH and part not. If in fact Nic is put into place by court order I think that would put the other suit to bed also. If that suit is won, then how could they say you couldn't do the same to the NIC. Just my take. Also if the NIC is actually put into place, age 65 in place, no protections for bases, couldn't the senior PSA group move to the top of PHX, LAS list to move closer to home? This will all be soon decided, when it's over I feel most will accept the decision and be ready to move on. The west will soon be paying members and all can work toward a better contract.

I think I explained before. Currently we have separate operations therefore separate seniority lists. What the Empire/Trump suit wants to do is reorder by true DOH the east list. Judge Wake will have completed this case before the E/T suit gets to court. If the judge rules that the Nicolau has to be used another federal court I believe could not overturn that ruling.

But the judge in the E/T could decide that since the lists are still separate he could reorder the east list by DOH. Then reinsert it back into the Nicolau. It would be no different then if we found out that the east list had a mistake in it. That is exactly what the MDA guys are trying to do. Change the east list to reflect their opinion that they were not furloughed.

Also I think that there are some very substantial monetary damages included in that suit. So maybe they don’t reorder the list but get paid big money.

You are correct that the PSA guys could if they chose to come to PHX and be senior captains. We know this, we understand this, we accept this. First there have to be vacancies for them to move. Second in reality there may only be maybe 200, 300 total pilots move to the west. In the scheme of things not a huge deal. That is part of a merger things change.

That is one of the things that the west can not understand. In reality not more than about 10 % of our guys would even consider going to the east coast. So a maximum of 170 pilots. If the same percentage of east moves west there are 300 pilots. What is the “fear†from the east that we will come flooding east. Look at your our pilots. Bradford can hold a captain slot but chooses to remain an F/O. We have the same thing happen here. A captain slot in PHL or senior F/O in PHX no brainer. Comfortable winters, easy flying out west with good schedules and no commute.

They would be from the entire range of seniority list. Senior captains to junior F/O’s. Not to take “your†seat but just to be closer to home. That is something that we are all going to have to get over. It is not yours and my flying. It is company flying. Frankly I was surprised to see in the NAC update that USAPA has disallowed cross domicile bidding. Really! Is PHL so selfish that they don’t want some lousy CLT pilot coming to do “THEIR FLYING�

I agree. If the judge determines that USAPA must use the Nicolau award as decided without fences. The west will join and pay dues. So we can get to a better contract. This could all be decided within 90 days. Judge Wakes wants this done quick.

I hope you are right that most will accept this decision when it is done. But that is what the west thought when we entered binding arbitration. My concern is that the east pilots will continue to be angry and think up more and unusual ways to disregard legal rulings. Just going on past practices.

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (cleardirect @ Nov 21 2008, 01:07 AM)
US Airways east was on the brink of liquation. Your pre-merger career expectations were to look for another job. No insult intended those are the facts as the exist.

How true that is....

Sounds like time for another minor reality check of sorts. Kindly do note that, in actual reality, versus your/anyone's "expecatations", that it didn't. ANY sort of hard and fast "expectations" for the future are always best left to children and other denizens still dwelling solely within Fantasyland's borders. Refresh our collective memory as to exactly what the west's "expectations" were pre-merger, and how accurate ANY of those have proved true in ANY way....???.... I'm listening....???..What "pre-merger expectations" out west have proved true again???...No one??..OK then. I guess it's fair to note that what you "expect" has NOTHING to do with ANY aspect fo reality?

As for any/all variations on long-standard west "thinking" regarding; "We saved you!!!...So you OWE us your seniority!!"...Well..I can only refer back to the children or Fantaslyand dwellers once more. No one can ever have any realistic notions on some alternate "reality" that's never to be. Basing any supposed "thought" on such nonsense is entirely a foolish, fanciful child's, or utter simpleton's errand, and means nothing in reality. "Durn it Zeke..if grandma just hadn't tried to walk home Christmas Eve..she shore 'nuff wouldn't 'a got run over by 'dem dang reindeer!"

 

[PA18]

The Shuttle pilots may be stepping on their own "member" if this succeeds.

And the Empire pilots might have a better argument, except that their DOH started when they were Part 135 flying Navajos and Metros.

Not to pick on the above-quoted poster personally, or this particular post specifically, but it does serve as a general illustration of the East pilots' history regarding DOH; which is to say, they have flip-flopped on this issue more than John Kerry and Mitt Romney combined.

The general attitude of the East pilots is that "Date of Hire is the only fair way to integrate a seniority list...as long as it benefits me."

(And it certainly isn't difficult to read an East's pilots posts on the subject, and figure out where he or she is on the list relative to the Empire and Shuttle pilots, is it?)

Up until now, they have been able to argue either for or against DOH, depending on what was of most benefit to them at the time, in individual cases, that were spaced out by a couple of years.

DOH?

1986 - Empire - No

1988 - AAA/PSA - Yes

1989 - AAA/PAI - AAA Yes; PAI No

1995 - UAL v1.0 - Yes

1998 - US Shuttle - No

2000 - UAL v2.0 - Yes

2005 - AWA - Yes

2006 - DAL - Yes

2007 - UAL v3.0 - Yes

But now they find themselves fighting the DOH battle on two very different fronts, and at the same time.

2008 - USAPA - AAA Yes; PAI Yes; AWA Yes; Empire No; Shuttle No


If nothing else comes of the Empire/Shuttle lawsuit, it will be very interesting to see how the East pilots -- and I do mean the East pilots, not just USAPA -- will be able to argue for DOH and against DOH at the same time.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Not to pick on the above-quoted poster personally, or this particular post specifically, but it does serve as a general illustration of the East pilots' history regarding DOH; which is to say, they have flip-flopped on this issue more than John Kerry and Mitt Romney combined.

The general attitude of the East pilots is that "Date of Hire is the only fair way to integrate a seniority list...as long as it benefits me."

(And it certainly isn't difficult to read an East's pilots posts on the subject, and figure out where he or she is on the list relative to the Empire and Shuttle pilots, is it?)

Up until now, they have been able to argue either for or against DOH, depending on what was of most benefit to them at the time, in individual cases, that were spaced out by a couple of years.

DOH?

1986 - Empire - No

1988 - AAA/PSA - Yes

1989 - AAA/PAI - AAA Yes; PAI No

1995 - UAL v1.0 - Yes

1998 - US Shuttle - No

2000 - UAL v2.0 - Yes

2005 - AWA - Yes

2006 - DAL - Yes

2007 - UAL v3.0 - Yes

But now they find themselves fighting the DOH battle on two very different fronts, and at the same time.

2008 - USAPA - AAA Yes; PAI Yes; AWA Yes; Empire No; Shuttle No


If nothing else comes of the Empire/Shuttle lawsuit, it will be very interesting to see how the East pilots -- and I do mean the East pilots, not just USAPA -- will be able to argue for DOH and against DOH at the same time.

Actually, your list is very enlightening in that the AAA pilot group has been very consistent throughout the whole process in advocating DOH as had been the PAI group in advocating against.

1986 - Empire and PAI - Empire stapled (this poster found that unfair)
1988 - AAA and PSA - agreed DOH
1989 - AAA and PAI - DOH prevailed, but PAI sought slotting
1995 - UAL One - AAA sought DOH
1998 - Trump Shuttle - AAA pilots (not all of MEC) sought Trump DOH; Trump pilots countered with seeking EAL DOH; compromised by arbitrating.
2000 - UAL Two - AAA sought DOH
2005 - AWA - AAA sought DOH
2006 - DAL - AAA sought DOH
2007 - UAL Three - AAA sought DOH
2008 - New CBA, USAPA, seeks DOH

That's pretty consistent. The one merger that was stapled was NOT an AAA merger. And the other non-DOH merger was settled by arbitration in light of the fact that one side had two different DOHs, neither one of which would have been fair.

So, thank you for the history lesson. The AAA ALPA MEC had been a consistent DOH advocate, and USAPA has taken up that mantle.

 

[PA18]

Actually, your list is very enlightening in that the AAA pilot group has been very consistent throughout the whole process in advocating DOH as had been the PAI group in advocating against.

So, thank you for the history lesson. The AAA ALPA MEC had been a consistent DOH advocate, and USAPA has taken up that mantle.

My apologies for perhaps not making it clearer. I was not distinguishing among AAA, PAI, ALPA or USAPA.

I was commenting on the East pilots in general.

But since you bring it up, was it not the AAA MEC who argued against DOH in the Shuttle merger? When the precedent had been set by the AFA to honor EAL DOH for the Shuttle F/A's?

 

[V1cut]

"In this case, however, the allegations state in specific terms that the union has taken impermissable measures to avoid representing West pilots fairly"

"A union breaches this duty when its conduct toward a member is arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith".

"

al·le·ga·tion (Ä￾l'Ä­-gÄ￾'shÉ™n) Pronunciation Key
n.
Something alleged; an assertion: allegations of disloyalty.
The act of alleging.
A statement asserting something without proof: The newspaper's charges of official wrongdoing were mere allegations.
Law An assertion made by a party that must be proved or supported with evidence.


You haven't "won" anything....only the opportunity to prove your case in court. The cheerleading going on here tells me one thing, you guys are hanging on by a very thin thread. We're just getting started here. Pace yourselves... before you all blow a vein.

 

[V1cut]

"USAPA’s Constitution declares its objective “[t]o maintain uniform principles of

seniority based on date of hire and the perpetuation thereof, with reasonable conditions

and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations.â€￾ To this end,

USAPA has convened a merger committee made up of twelve East Pilots and no West

Pilots"



Lets see, when this committee was being assembled, was that during the timeframe of the thousands of phone calls to the safety hotline?...or maybe it was when the AWAPPA club was collecting "dues" for countermeasures AGAINST USAPA?....or maybe that was during the timeframe of the excrement-filled bogus USAPA membership applications?....

I don't have a calendar right in front of me, but I suspect there's plenty of documented "counter-intelligence" by the west while they were being "left out" of the USAPA committee's.

I guess we'll see.

It's your case to prove.

 

[nycbusdriver]

My apologies for perhaps not making it clearer. I was not distinguishing among AAA, PAI, ALPA or USAPA.

I was commenting on the East pilots in general.

But since you bring it up, was it not the AAA MEC who argued against DOH in the Shuttle merger? When the precedent had been set by the AFA to honor EAL DOH for the Shuttle F/A's?

The MEC didn't argue against DOH in the Trump Shuttle merger. They argued against the Trump pilots using a DOH gained at a company for which they were no longer employed, and from which they had resigned in WRITING to secure a job with Trump. The AAA MEC was perfectly willing to do a DOH merger with the Trump pilots using the date on which they were hired at the carrier that was being purchased. But, rather than get into that mess, they simply went to arbitration. I'm not sure exactly what each side offered Nicolau, but Trump Shuttle was wise enough not to argue ANY DOH, lest Nicolau agree to that and tell them they got their Trump DOH. I think the AAA MEC backed away from arguing for using Trump DOH for the opposite reason. The arbitration arguments were mostly both sides hedging their bets.

And, yes, the AFA gave the Trump Shuttle flight attendants their Eastern DOH. But then, I thought the big argument here by the westies is that we don't do things that way just because another union does it. So, with that in mind, which side are you on? Doing like the AFA, or not?

 

[Tiger 1050]

You haven't "won" anything....only the opportunity to prove your case in court.

And this is what we are supremely thrilled about. No one has said we have won anything yet. But the chance to set this right is a huge opportunity.

The cheerleading going on here tells me one thing, you guys are hanging on by a very thin thread. We're just getting started here. Pace yourselves... before you all blow a vein.

I take it you only read the USAPA update. Any rational person who read Judge Wake's ruling from beginning to end would at the very least understand we are hanging on by sturdy steel cable. No guarantee but... Well let's just say I feel pretty darn good about our chances.

 

[Waketurbulence]

al·le·ga·tion (Ä￾l'Ä­-gÄ￾'shÉ™n) Pronunciation Key
n.
Something alleged; an assertion: allegations of disloyalty.
The act of alleging.
A statement asserting something without proof: The newspaper's charges of official wrongdoing were mere allegations.
Law An assertion made by a party that must be proved or supported with evidence.


You haven't "won" anything....only the opportunity to prove your case in court. The cheerleading going on here tells me one thing, you guys are hanging on by a very thin thread. We're just getting started here. Pace yourselves... before you all blow a vein.

While your at it, why don't you show the definition of Union?

Read the court document. EVERY argument usapa made was debunked. What will they argue now? Your right though, we haven't "won" anything YET, but having the opportunity to prove our case is all we need. The law will prevail, not foot stomping and crying.

The only one benifitting from the services of usapa is seeham. The sooner the east pilots realize this the better for us all.