US IAM Fleet Service topic 3/20-

[ChockJockey]

Your perception is your reality! We are fighting to represent workers who have long term aspirations in the business. I’ll assure you that you will find few... if any of your mentioned professionals and business owners in Fleet Service here.

I agree. Perception being reality is a universal attribute. Our stations have two different demographics.

We have only hard working, loyal; career minded...workers with decades of experience. All these devoted folk’s have seen this industry through a myriad of changes. Mostly for the worse! They have families to raise... bills to pay... this is not some little extra job that provides flying benefits while they pursue outside endeavors. This is their livelihood!

Which, again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that and I don't believe I've ever criticized the integrity or priorities of your co-workers in CLT. I'm not making a judgment call, I'm pointing out the differences. I will agree with Jester though on the point that I would also not define ramping a career choice per se.

Unfortunately for some, the passion that we feel towards an issue does nothing to change how our vote is weighted when it comes time to cast the ballot.

Not that flying benefits even matter anymore... you ain’t gettin’ on most flights... and if you do... you ain’t gittin’ back!

Maybe not, I rarely use them myself, and they're not why I came to work for US.

P.S. how many of these folk's are still working beside you?

Can't say...hard to keep tabs on 1,000 coworkers.

Obviously, in any free and democratic situation there will always be different opinion but a pool of many voices give us the opportunity to wrestle and unpack issues and to look at things differently and come to reasonable conclusions reached by the majority...provided there is freedom through a democratic process whereby each voice can be heard.

Regarding the contract vote, there was a compelling and convincing argument to get a transition as the majority of workers felt this was the best argument. The good thing is that the IAM doesn't muzzle the voice but allows the freedom and exprression of voting, this type of democracy empowers the masses at the city gates.

At any rate, the majority decided, not you, not me, not just PHX, but the majority. That's actually a right that the IAM constitution gives that other unions don't give to its members. Ask the ticket counter folks if they had a voice in their contract.

Well put.

Ooh Ooh, I field this one. I'll answer the question with a short story.
[snip]

Knees, your story does well to illustrate why the ramp attracts all kinds of people.

i was merely pointing out the times when we've been on the right side of the wall on issues ...

it's alot like chock jockey posted , it seems to me that there are more close minded people on here than open minded .... :down:

I'm glad you're catching my sentiment but I have to say that in my experience most open-minded people are hesitant to see things in simple terms of right and wrong.

So Admonishes Jester.

Mr. Jester's contentions on this issue are sobering and worthy of consideration.

it just astonishes me how some people like jester can just seem to throw their union out the window
and could care less about being union but yet if they weren't union they would be making substandard wages
with crazy work rules . Maybe some of you who are so opposed to the union and what it stands for should
take the time to watch a movie about some coalminers and what the union meant to them .
it's called "Matewan" . It's just disgraceful the way people want to bash there union but yet still reap all the benefits it offers. If Vince H. and the old school boys were still around they wouldn't be having this conversation. but I guess growing up and living out west the culture is of a non union mentality .

From what I can gather, no one that posts here is anti-union. Some just have reservations and strong opinions in regards to how this particular union conducts business.

They dont realize people were killed in order to get the right to be in a union, but if they were SO educated they would know that.

Haymarket Square and numerous other events in history show the violence used against workers to oppress them and not let them organize into being represented by a union.

I do know that. Just because people die for something doesn't make it automatically sacred and unique. I don't have time to drag out 130 years of union history in the U.S. just to point out that the union struggle was a vastly different affair in 1886 and that comparing one's petty discomforts of ramping in the airline industry to the crimes that these workers suffered under and organized against is even more of an insult to their sacrifices.

 

[freedom]

They dont realize people were killed in order to get the right to be in a union, but if they were SO educated they would know that.

Haymarket Square and numerous other events in history show the violence used against workers to oppress them and not let them organize into being represented by a union.

I'll bet you the people who died for unions did NOT die for what we have today ...

What we have today are an apathetic group of self serveing and or lazy workers and union leaders who's only concern is for their own betterment ... and that's where the buck stops ...

For our work group and union leaders , there's nothing beyond the contract and it's enforcment .... that's the end of the earth so to speak ... it's as if our memebership and leadership considers the earth flat with nothing beyond ....

we should be gearing up to fight for the worker , and i'm not talking about airline workers , i'm talking about the general theory of the WORKER ....people need jobs! we should be out there demanding that the goverment reinstute the WPA! we should be fighting to help our fellow man , our fellow worker! but instead we do NOTHING .... we sit around and talk about greviances etc.....

weak weak ... :down:

EDIT: just so we're clear , i don't mean lazy as related to WORKING , but lazy as in rallying for a cause ...

 

[Tim Nelson]

My Dear Mr. Roabilly,
...You are completely depending your livelihood upon the survival of US??? Everyone should ask themselves, "If US closes tomorrow, realistically how much could I earn with another job?"

Jester,
Is it your hypothesis that there is no objective evidence that the IAM is worth their dues for the PHX rampers? You're a bright fella so you should be able to do the math enough to reduce the question to either Yes or No? Yes or No Jester? Nuff of your elitist rant, answer the question, Yes or No?

regards,
Tim Nelson

 

[bagchucker]

Interesting reading over the last couple of pages. Nice to see the blending of cultures that we have. It finally seems some folks are opening their eyes a little. Yes, the stereotypical attributes that one can generalize about workers in CLT or PHX are both evident in the reading. We both still pay dues to the same union and like each other or not, we should definitely gain an appreciation for one another since we do the same work and are cut from different molds. I guess I have a little of each mentality, so I can appreciate both sides of the opinions expressed.

When I was hired with America West, I didn't think I'd be sticking around for long. I was part time and cross utilized with no union and in possesion of a college degree. Now, with umpteen years with the Company, 5 stations (with 1 year on the PHX ramp), I still do this work by choice and take pride in my job. I am fulltime ramp now. Sure, I could be out there doing something else I don't really care for and making an extra nickel. The ramp is in my blood, though... what can I say.

So, you have a college educated person doing ramp work for his livelihood. Modest but acceptable, I am thankful to have a decent job.

 

[mike33]

I'll bet you the people who died for unions did NOT die for what we have today ...

What we have today are an apathetic group of self serveing and or lazy workers and union leaders who's only concern is for their own betterment ... and that's where the buck stops ...


EDIT: just so we're clear , i don't mean lazy as related to WORKING , but lazy as in rallying for a cause ...

Tell that to your AGC who is away from home/family 5 days a week. My guess is that you are single with no one to care for and probably have a roommate. If that is the case, then reconsider the validity of your remark.........

 

[freedom]

Tell that to your AGC who is away from home/family 5 days a week. My guess is that you are single with no one to care for and probably have a roommate. If that is the case, then reconsider the validity of your remark.........

Sorry mike , but i have to disagree with you here , because as i see it there isn't that much to do for our union reps these days ... other than ensuring that our memebers don't lose their jobs ... i can't see much more use for them ...now i'm sure that they make up little games to play with the respective companies , but as far as productivity goes ... nah ...

I feel that there is a fundemtal disconnect between the ideal of unions and the actual reality of what our union has become ...i suppose this is why unions have faded into disuse ..

Right now we have a chance to make a difference , we have a cause to support and by that i mean our fellow working man or woman ....

our whole existance is based on WORK ,, that's what unions are about , WORK and working conditions ... there should be no more vigirous supporter of work programs in this country than unions , but it seems as if we've just kinda collecivtly sat back and gone "eh " i know that we support card check , but right now , card check if it happens or doesn't happen should no longer be our main priority , getting people WORK , getting them BACK to work , that should be our goal as unions ...

 

[Jester]

Jester,
Is it your hypothesis that there is no objective evidence that the IAM is worth their dues for the PHX rampers? You're a bright fella so you should be able to do the math enough to reduce the question to either Yes or No? Yes or No Jester? Nuff of your elitist rant, answer the question, Yes or No?

regards,
Tim Nelson

Mr. Nelson,

Your query is a non-sequitur within the context of the question I believe every person should ask themselves, "If US closes tomorrow, realistically how much could I earn with another job?" How much anyone is paying in union dues should be unrelated to the question I posed. Regardless if one is paying a little or a lot in union dues, the issue of earning potential sans US Airways as an on-going employer should help one take stock of themselves in terms of their job skills and education, which was my point.

Now to answer your question... of course, the union dues are a bargain relative to the pay increases forthcoming. However, that is cold comfort if the company closes down and people lack the job skills and education to earn something comparable later without having to start on the bottom with another airline gig at part-time and wait a decade to top-out.

So Replies Jester.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Mr. Nelson,
...Now to answer your question... of course, the union dues are a bargain relative to the pay increases forthcoming. However, that is cold comfort if the company closes down and people lack the job skills and education to earn something comparable later without having to start on the bottom with another airline gig at part-time and wait a decade to top-out.

So Replies Jester.

Good, I agree, the union dues are definately a good bargain. As for your paternalistic opinion that people should have job skills outside of their US AIRWAYS job, who would argue with that? Are you really telling anyone something that they don't already know?

regards,
Tim Nelson

 

[mike33]

Sorry mike , but i have to disagree with you here , because as i see it there isn't that much to do for our union reps these days ... other than ensuring that our memebers don't lose their jobs ... i can't see much more use for them ...now i'm sure that they make up little games to play with the respective companies , but as far as productivity goes ... nah ...I feel that there is a fundemtal disconnect between the ideal of unions and the actual reality of what our union has become ...i suppose this is why unions have faded into disuse ..

I don't know why I respond to your comments. Your whole response is the definition of the very words you use.
It is the definition of the word " DISCONNECT". You have no IDEA what your AGC does and your comment assumes you make contact with them quite frequently.

Have your GC "Edumacate" you.

P.Rez......You believe this guy?

 

[Tim Nelson]

Sorry mike , but i have to disagree with you here , because as i see it there isn't that much to do for our union reps these days ... other than ensuring that our memebers don't lose their jobs ... i can't see much more use for them ...now i'm sure that they make up little games to play with the respective companies , but as far as productivity goes ... nah ...

I feel that there is a fundemtal disconnect between the ideal of unions and the actual reality of what our union has become ...i suppose this is why unions have faded into disuse ..

Right now we have a chance to make a difference , we have a cause to support and by that i mean our fellow working man or woman ....

our whole existance is based on WORK ,, that's what unions are about , WORK and working conditions ... there should be no more vigirous supporter of work programs in this country than unions , but it seems as if we've just kinda collecivtly sat back and gone "eh " i know that we support card check , but right now , card check if it happens or doesn't happen should no longer be our main priority , getting people WORK , getting them BACK to work , that should be our goal as unions ...

Freedom,
Right now there is a legally binding contract that the members deemed fair. Your union leaders are administering that contact through grievances at a record clip. Many of these recent grievances are now at arbitration or have just been arbitrated with decision waiting. One thing we can't deny is that this new group has done an excellent job at moving grievances through the process.

However, you are on to something with your 'little games' comment that I wanna comment about. Your company wants to keep your union leaders busy at the chessboard and it realizes your union leaders will win a few games. In fact, IMO, your company would be willing to keep your union leaders at the chess board 100% of the time as opposed at the city gates where the masses are.

Therefore, I think any union leader needs to balance his/her time and make sure that they allow at least a full day [at least 12 hours, day and evening shift] each month exclusively in the breakrooms as opposed to such comfortable places like committee offices and Local halls. And I'm not talking about just walking through breakrooms shaking hands.
Breakrooms are tough because of the breakroom warriers but a good king goes out to the city gates and hears the voices of the masses. This can't be done at the chess board, committee offices, or elsewhere. If your union leader isn't doing that then even if you have the best contract, dissonent voices will build since the masses will be frustrated that their voice isn't being heard.

Hopefully, these AGC's are getting out there. And when they are in the phx breakroom then I hope you exercise your voice because they need to hear all voices even if they are dissonent voices. It's called accountability.

regards,
Tim Nelson

 

[Jester]

We have only hard working, loyal; career minded...workers with decades of experience. All these devoted folk’s have seen this industry through a myriad of changes. Mostly for the worse! They have families to raise... bills to pay...
Roabilly

Gee Mr. Nelson, I don't know who would argue the importance of job skills and education given the omniscient surveys of Mr. Roabilly... did you notice he made absolutely no mention of either education or job skills in his rant? Furthermore, I have heard from other Easties within this forum complain it would be too great of a burden to go back to school (more of the hallmark excuses and the victim mentality). Besides who needs any meaningful college education when one can just become a Vice-President of the IAM instead?

So Reminds Jester.

 

[Ramp Rogue]

Jester,
Is it your hypothesis that there is no objective evidence that the IAM is worth their dues for the PHX rampers? You're a bright fella so you should be able to do the math enough to reduce the question to either Yes or No? Yes or No Jester? Nuff of your elitist rant, answer the question, Yes or No?

regards,
Tim Nelson

I'll answer this one for you Jester. NO, the iam is not worth the dues we pay them!

Rogue

 

[freedom]

I don't know why I respond to your comments. Your whole response is the definition of the very words you use.
It is the definition of the word " DISCONNECT". You have no IDEA what your AGC does and your comment assumes you make contact with them quite frequently.

Have your GC "Edumacate" you.

P.Rez......You believe this guy?

i don't think i've made it clear what i'm saying so i'll try again ...

Mike , with the way things are going in this country , with this economy , the most immideate threat to US and unions in general is a worsening economy ...

Right now most unions aren't going to be able to make much headway as far as contract improvments (money, vaction etc ) for their workers because right now people are just happy to HAVE a job ... in this kind of enviroment unions will remain terribly weak .

Our union must join with all the others in this country in helping (doing OUR part ) to address the rising unemployment ...

so to recap ....

our own IAM 141 issues , mildily imporant ,

NATIONAL union issues VERY imporant .

 

[orioleman]

freedom,
I have to laugh at your hypocrisy . You scream the union needs to get people back to work.

YOU VOTED OUR OWN PEOPLE OUT OF WORK . It's just laughable how you think the union brass

just sits around all day and does nothing. Why don't you try and learn a little bit about what MY union does

on a daily basis. Since your so motivated to DO SOMETHING. How bout getting with your good buddy

RR and see if you can get on an organizing committee. or maybe you could start a collection for some

folks that are out on strike . Hey here's and idea GO TO A MEETING.

You see your babbling is just that . Who can take someone serious about unionism when said person has

never been to a union meeting and continues to parade around raising Dougies flag as the savior .

PLEEEEEEEEEEASE .. GO BACK TO THE WATERCOOLER and talk about how the world is coming to an end.

 

[700UW]

Hey Freedom,

Go read about what the TWU just got the WN FAs, you might be surprised.

WN FA TWU