US IAM Fleet Service topic 3/20-
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Kev3188
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Accreditation does not equal education.
Some of the dumbest people I have ever met had nice shiny degrees from highly esteemed schools.
Some of the brightest didn't have one at all.
Some of the dumbest people I have ever met had nice shiny degrees from highly esteemed schools.
Some of the brightest didn't have one at all.
Jester
Veteran
You all need to get that dirt out of your ears after burying your head in the sand for so long and start listening to yourselves.
This discussion reminds me of the wealthy widow who has entrusted herself to the advice of various experts while either unable or unwilling to learn, at least, some modicum knowledge in the area of law and finance as it effects her. So instead she is now prone to being a victim instead as her advisors give only passing heed to their fudiciary responsibilities while cashing the checks. My point being, Mr. Nelson, if the top IAM "leadership" is going to forgo any real education while making decisions by relying upon the expert advice of "'Top' attorneys [google Bush & associates], economists, and accountants" then why do we even need them as they are incompetent gatekeepers? So instead the members rely upon the decision making abilities of former aircraft assemblers, welders, meter repairmen and alike based upon their conversations with real experts all the while they all feed at the trough of membership dues? Weren't you the same person not too long ago rallying against six-figure salaries being given to union leadership who you deemed to be incompetent prior to Boss Canale's election defeat? You might want to get some of that sand out of your eyes.
Furthermore, there appears to be a many shining examples of cognitve dissonance with other responders to my posts:
Not to forget Mr. Nelson: While you use your example of how you "recall up to $6 pay raises for many of our brothers and sisters from the west and class 2 stations within the context of a company losing millions and an economy on the catastrophic edge. Do you think Parker would have treated you as well without a union?" You mean that same contract you urged everyone to vote against, now you are taking credit for it? Will you also take credit for the open absentee policy given to management too?
My Gentle Mr. Roabilly: You cleverly post, "They’s ahh Skunk intah Hen House!" while ignoring that I have been extremely critical of managers within this same organization who have failed to hold a disciplined structure. Just because I am critical of this union and demand better representation, should automatically conclude I am not a manager or wannabe manager.
To the original OG: You open with, "You have a POS contract because the ramp became employes at will. They voted out the union." When did the CBA become null and void? May I stop paying dues then?
To My Respected, Yet Disagreeable, Mr. 700U: As you question, "And if this union is so bad, why does it represent WN's CSAs and RSAs and they are amongst the highest paid in the industry? And the same goes to CO's FAs, care to explain that?" Did you notice the message board's title when you posted, as it says "Fleet Service"? This discussion is related to fleet service and if you are going to use WN and CO as your examples, then who are the union representatives for both? WN FSA's has TWU and CO FSA's are non-union? Those are your best examples to support the IAM for US fleet? Don't you recall the TWU attempting to represent US FSA's? How did that go? Seasons Beatings!
To Mr. Kev: You post a puzzling hypothesis: "Accreditation does not equal education. Some of the dumbest people I have ever met had nice shiny degrees from highly esteemed schools. Some of the brightest didn't have one at all." Sure we can all have mail order Phd's from non-accredited "universities" run the world and by the way, and if you need surgery, I know a meat butcher who does cheap work. While there are plenty of educated fools, I don't know of any informed people on the ways of law and finance without an education.
In conclusion, while you all might fear professional business types, especially those who are going to represent you, they understand the rules by which we live as it is a nation of laws and economics. Until and unless we become a nation of mob rule, those who eschew education and embrace incompetency will suffer from their own ignorance.
So Delineates Jester.
This discussion reminds me of the wealthy widow who has entrusted herself to the advice of various experts while either unable or unwilling to learn, at least, some modicum knowledge in the area of law and finance as it effects her. So instead she is now prone to being a victim instead as her advisors give only passing heed to their fudiciary responsibilities while cashing the checks. My point being, Mr. Nelson, if the top IAM "leadership" is going to forgo any real education while making decisions by relying upon the expert advice of "'Top' attorneys [google Bush & associates], economists, and accountants" then why do we even need them as they are incompetent gatekeepers? So instead the members rely upon the decision making abilities of former aircraft assemblers, welders, meter repairmen and alike based upon their conversations with real experts all the while they all feed at the trough of membership dues? Weren't you the same person not too long ago rallying against six-figure salaries being given to union leadership who you deemed to be incompetent prior to Boss Canale's election defeat? You might want to get some of that sand out of your eyes.
Furthermore, there appears to be a many shining examples of cognitve dissonance with other responders to my posts:
Not to forget Mr. Nelson: While you use your example of how you "recall up to $6 pay raises for many of our brothers and sisters from the west and class 2 stations within the context of a company losing millions and an economy on the catastrophic edge. Do you think Parker would have treated you as well without a union?" You mean that same contract you urged everyone to vote against, now you are taking credit for it? Will you also take credit for the open absentee policy given to management too?
My Gentle Mr. Roabilly: You cleverly post, "They’s ahh Skunk intah Hen House!" while ignoring that I have been extremely critical of managers within this same organization who have failed to hold a disciplined structure. Just because I am critical of this union and demand better representation, should automatically conclude I am not a manager or wannabe manager.
To the original OG: You open with, "You have a POS contract because the ramp became employes at will. They voted out the union." When did the CBA become null and void? May I stop paying dues then?
To My Respected, Yet Disagreeable, Mr. 700U: As you question, "And if this union is so bad, why does it represent WN's CSAs and RSAs and they are amongst the highest paid in the industry? And the same goes to CO's FAs, care to explain that?" Did you notice the message board's title when you posted, as it says "Fleet Service"? This discussion is related to fleet service and if you are going to use WN and CO as your examples, then who are the union representatives for both? WN FSA's has TWU and CO FSA's are non-union? Those are your best examples to support the IAM for US fleet? Don't you recall the TWU attempting to represent US FSA's? How did that go? Seasons Beatings!
To Mr. Kev: You post a puzzling hypothesis: "Accreditation does not equal education. Some of the dumbest people I have ever met had nice shiny degrees from highly esteemed schools. Some of the brightest didn't have one at all." Sure we can all have mail order Phd's from non-accredited "universities" run the world and by the way, and if you need surgery, I know a meat butcher who does cheap work. While there are plenty of educated fools, I don't know of any informed people on the ways of law and finance without an education.
In conclusion, while you all might fear professional business types, especially those who are going to represent you, they understand the rules by which we live as it is a nation of laws and economics. Until and unless we become a nation of mob rule, those who eschew education and embrace incompetency will suffer from their own ignorance.
So Delineates Jester.
Tim Nelson
Veteran
Who said anything about forgoing education? Once again, you have redefined terms in your hypothesis. To clarify your hypothesis, define 'real' education for us and tell us on what basis do you exclude other education paths? While you're at it, what 4 year degree would be acceptable to you, nursing? History major? Management proficiency? Teaching certificate? Which degree will legitimate them for you since your fancy seems to be that they need at minimum a 4 year degree to become suitable?
Again, since it is your hypothesis, the onus is on you to prove it but so far you have offered no evidence other than a tiradian rant which is no more than 'personal opinion' within your preference zone.
OTOH, I don't have any problem with elected representatives being previous welders, aircraft assemblers, meter repairman, etc. as I see no evidence that they are necessarily handicapped in their decision making abilities if they don't have a formal 4 year degree.
Salaries aren't off topic. I continue to believe in union accountability like I hope all of the members do. These processes of determing salaries are within the membership's control.
Even so, I'll have to give credit to the New Direction officers who were just sworn in. They decided, on their own, to forego their pay increases last month and instead placed the money where they felt it would better serve the members. A very honorable thing they did by free volition.
Certainly I exercised my opinion at the city's gates as well as others and made my appeals to the masses before the case was closed. Discussion and various opinion help unpack the issues. The contract is the final representation of the pulse and voice of the membership. It reflected a process that resulted in a reasonable outcome as determined by majority vote. Without that process, there would have been a negative effect on the masses and I doubt members would have seen up to $6 raises.
At last you make some sense. But nobody is eschewing education except you by limiting education to 'real' education as defined by you as someone with at least a 4 year degree.
regards,
Tim Nelson
Jester,
You got me there! But you should get involved. Run for steward, and get on the next contract screening commitee. Your eyes may be opened a bit.
And no, you still have to pay dues. That would have been the time between IBT and the IAM.
😱 OG
You got me there! But you should get involved. Run for steward, and get on the next contract screening commitee. Your eyes may be opened a bit.
And no, you still have to pay dues. That would have been the time between IBT and the IAM.
😱 OG
roabilly
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Since you have this excessive passion for Union Leadership Education, and you appear to be a man of significant intellect... why don’t you simply set out to implement the very demands that you request?
It is easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize everyone whom is trying to make a difference... so... here is yet another Roabilly personal challenge for you... (You have yet to fully fulfill any of my past challenges.) ...so... here goes...
1) I challenge you to personally run for any elected position within the Union!
2) I challenge you to utilize your intellectual and educational wherewithal to augment the integrity of the Union that represents Fleet Service!
3) I challenge you to BBQ eatin’ ‘n shine shootin’ contest!
If you caint “Man-up†‘n meet these challenges... yew should seek another tree tahh bark up!
So formally requests...
“Gentle Mr. Roabillyâ€...
Gitcha Sum!
Kev3188
Veteran
What's so puzzling about it?
Anyone can get accreditation (a degree); all they need is time, money, and the ability to memorize material. How they utilize that is a whole different story.
The problem with your theory is that you've boxed yourself into a corner of absolutes. To say that someone with a degree is automatically more mentally capable than someone who merely has "real world experience" is ridiculous.
By the way, I don't fear higher learning, or people who undertake it, I'm a champion of it. With that said, it doesn't automatically make them adept at applying it.
ChockJockey
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It may or may not be of note but I've recently discovered that the "bag room couch" is no more; it has been replaced by a row of green terminal seats.
PHX is now down to two couches, though neither is in a work area. I hope this does not harm any of the arguments heretofore provided.
PHX is now down to two couches, though neither is in a work area. I hope this does not harm any of the arguments heretofore provided.
JoeDirt
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Jester
You really should get involved. Get upoff your couch and help PHX and all of Fleet Service. It looks to me as if you might be sticking around for a while.
I got actively involved a couple years ago and have not regretted doing so.
Sorry to hear about your couch. Those chairs are not very comfortable.
You really should get involved. Get up
I got actively involved a couple years ago and have not regretted doing so.
Sorry to hear about your couch. Those chairs are not very comfortable.
roabilly
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JoeDirt
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Yeah I know Roa but I was hoping for a repeat that was sum good BBQ
I know Mr. Nelson sure enjoyed the "Q".
ChockJockey
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Which is unfortunate, because now all bag room have left are the office chairs in Oversize, the basement break room, the interline tent, T-Point cabana, the fans and the comfy chairs between all the piers. I find bag room to be a rather sad place, though.
freedom
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i've wondered where the sofa's have gone ... i mean the sofa jester refers to was in OK condition , don't you think it's strange that it one day vanished ?
personally i have my suspcions about where it's gone too , but i stay out of other work group's break rooms .... but still i have this funny feeling that if i poked around i'd find it .... (i don't think it went too far from where it was orginally )...
Dog Wonder
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Bagrooms have always been sad places.
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