US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 4/21-4/28

[nic4us]

I think some on the west wanted the list implimented without a new contract, ( because of the unexpected furloughs) but that would have been a violation of the TA also. If we were still in the current climate (no usapa, but alpa still the rep. group) no contract, still sep. ops, and the company furloughed, would the results have been different, and if so how? Thanks

Not implemented but used in this unexpected instance. After all, in the end if the Nic is implemented these folks are working and there will be pilots senior to them furloughed, what do we do then.

If ALPA were still here I am sure you are correct, and the east Mec may have taken a stance similar to USAPA's. However, I do not believe min block hours and newhire retention would have taken a back seat to this issue.

But it is not all bad, I will give USAPA credit for one thing, even though I am not sure if it was their idea or how much they helped get it through, but extending voluntary leave language to the West helped out a few on our side.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The east loan pilot would have returned to his/her place on their list. Thats all.

Perhaps you can quote the part of the TA that says this...since it's the TA that allows East furloughs to return to a West job in lieu of a new hire. I don't think you'll find "loan pilot" or anything about returning "to his/her place on their list" absent combined ops.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

Nic4
Thanks for your comments. I agree with you on the TA but a combined list had not been implimented yet or at that time not even decided.

I noticed something after I posted. In this sentence you say a combined list had not been decided. I would agree that it had not been implemented, but the combined list had most definitely been decided, and accepted by the company.

 

[toganoflex]

Wonder how Seham is going to get around this. I hear you easties are now focusing more on getting an appeal going than the actual trial.


Trial exhibit No. 14 is also an open letter. Although undated, it reports

a conversation that occurred in early June 2007 between Mr. Bradford and

Chris Katzenbach of Katzenbach and Khitikan, a law firm. This exhibit

states the following facts, all of which are stated in trial exhibit Nos. 314

and 315: (1) that Katzenbach represents a group of American Eagle pilots,

helping them to set up an independent union to oust ALPA from that

airline; (2) that Mr. Katzenbach was impressed with the America West Pilot

final brief submitted in the Nicolau Arbitration; and (3) that Mr.

Katzenbach advised that, by forming a new bargaining agent, the East

Pilots could get around the Nicolau Award. The only point made in trial

exhibit No. 14 that is not disclosed in exhibit Nos. 314 and 315 is that Mr.

Katzenbach cautioned Mr. Bradford that when communicating the reasons

for forming USAPA and when selling USAPA to the East Pilots he must not

reveal that the reason for creating USAPA was to “abrogateâ€￾ the Nicolau

Arbitration.

 

[cubfan]

First thing, your premise that east pilots were on “loanâ€￾ is incorrect. When the T/A was written to was meant as a transition. Maybe 6 months to get us to a combined contract and seniority list. Once we had a contract there would be no east west pilots. There would be a single seniority list. Therefore no “loanedâ€￾ pilots, no separate ops.

The seniority list would place those recalled pilots in whatever position the arbitration decided. If it had gone somewhere close to DOH those recalled pilots would have jumped way up the list once combined. As it turns out. With the Nicolau list they are going to stay right where they are. Junior to west pilots because they were furloughed at the time. Don’t forget why they are called “recalled pilotsâ€￾.

It is essential to remember the proper history. Not the situation that we find ourselves in.

Clear,
I agree on loan was incorrect in that time and place, I also thought combined op's or at least a combined list woud be done also in 6/12mo. How ever no one saw this coming. So with all things being the same, nothing would have changed. Soon all this will be behind us, and I hope all will just move on, I know I will.
Have a great weekend

 

[fodase]

Luvn
I agree but were not in what if's. My point was that with alpa still on property and the furloughs still happened, the results would have been the same. The east loan pilot would have returned to his/her place on their list. Thats all. This was not a back room under the table deal that some think it was, ALPA/USAPA on this topic only, no different result, even with the current situation.

The point you are missing is that in order to be recalled from furlough, there must be a vacancy. The east was furloughing, so there were no vacancy's for the six to go back to, yet the company and usapa colluded to give those 6 a job while furloughing an extra six from the east.

 

[cubfan]

I noticed something after I posted. In this sentence you say a combined list had not been decided. I would agree that it had not been implemented, but the combined list had most definitely been decided, and accepted by the company.

I think I was thinking when the TA was first written.

 

[Elevation]

Follow the Katzenbach letter up with a few videos from the USAPA roadshow in Phx and end it with the DOH list presented to the company in Sept.... Coup de grace.

 

[toganoflex]

Your dues, agency fees. Not sure what kind of Wake ruling would require a bond. Appeals courts find fault, not an attorney. Normally appeals are handled by attorneys who specialize in appeals and who have regular exposure to a particular appeals court. Thats probably the route wed go.

Uhhh, the attorney has to file a motion stating the reason for the appeal (some procedural error). The appeals court then decides wether or not to hear the appeal. See, in civil cases, you don't automatically get to have your appeal heard and you sure as heck aren't granted one just because you don't like the verdict.

You need to ask one of you "reps" exactly how it works. Watching Law & Order shouldn't be your only source for jurisprudence.

Worst case Wake tells us to use the NIC. Like were going to have a contract in the next year?

You'd be surprised. Lots of you easties are getting tired of the LOA93 lifestyle and have seen just how toothless your union is by the way the company is walking all over it. Those pilots, along with the ALPA supporters and the west pilots will make it very close at the least.

How many of the terminated pilots has USAPA gotten back onto the line?

What pre-elction promises?

The ones you fell for. Like, for instance, having a contract by the end of 2008.

Im sure USAPA will comply with any court order. Were not APA.

Ya, right. Just like you complied with binding arbitration.

We tried to get the NMB involved early this round.

Ya, to use as an excuse for moving backwards.

 

[toganoflex]

Follow the Katzenbach letter up with a few videos from the USAPA roadshow in Phx and end it with the DOH list presented to the company in Sept.... Coup de grace.

We couldn't have asked for a better defendant.

 

[cubfan]

Perhaps you can quote the part of the TA that says this...since it's the TA that allows East furloughs to return to a West job in lieu of a new hire. I don't think you'll find "loan pilot" or anything about returning "to his/her place on their list" absent combined ops.

Jim

Jim,

Ok..OK..loan pilot was a figure of speech, but with the current situation, do you think the more senior east pilot who took the TA deal should have been furloughed, and the more jr. east pilot who didn't stay working. Going back to what I had said before, both ALPA MEC's didn't ask enough what if questions. Furloughs or this whole crummy situation wasn't even on their radar.

 

[luvn737s]

Furloughs or this whole crummy situation wasn't even on their radar.

When the east was unwilling to consider anything but DOH, that was a steep contoured, shadowed and hooked return painting purple.

The east decided to switch off the radar. "We're going anyhow, why let that thing frighten you?"

 

[BoeingBoy]

with the current situation, do you think the more senior east pilot who took the TA deal should have been furloughed, and the more jr. east pilot who didn't stay working.

It shouldn't matter what either of us think - the TA should be controlling unless it's just another agreement that's disregarded when it becomes inconvenient.

I notice that people defend the process used for those East pilots who accepted recall to a West job per the TA, but at the time the West pilots started being furloughed ahead of new hire pilots many of the same people also defended that though the TA said otherwise.

Jim

 

[toganoflex]

It shouldn't matter what either of us think - the TA should be controlling unless it's just another agreement that's disregarded when it becomes inconvenient.

I notice that people defend the process used for those East pilots who accepted recall to a West job per the TA, but at the time the West pilots started being furloughed ahead of new hire pilots many of the same people also defended that though the TA said otherwise.

Jim

Are you surprised?

 

[Elevation]

We couldn't have asked for a better defendant.

Seham & Bradford staring in Thelma & Louise part II. The plot line has Seham & Bradford holding hands while driving the infamous Herndon van off a parking garage by the Federal Court building in Phoenix.

[with parking garage edge in front of them and judge and AOL behind them]
Bradford: OK, then listen; let's not get caught.
Seham: What're you talkin' about?
Bradford: Let's keep goin'!
Seham: What d'you mean?
Bradford: ...Go.
Bradford: [Bradford nods, motioning ahead of them]
Seham: You sure?
Bradford: Yeah.

[screaming together] Seniority matters.......ahhhhhhhhhhhhh