US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 4/21-4/28

[nostradamus]

Latest from the america west pilots update.

First they claimed 100 percent are committed to attain their class action law suit after only having 50 percent a week earlier . Then they complained to their own that only 3/4 provided contributions. Now it is down to 50 percent again. Follow their money trail, it will provide insight into the larger picture.

It is possible, some of their contribution percentages, may involve a slight amount of fabrication.


army of leonidas, (america west pilot) update;;

""Finally, we would ask that our supporters continue to reach out to West pilots who have yet to contribute to this cause. The time is drawing near where this seniority fight will be over and whether we win or lose, those pilots who have not helped this cause will have to live with that. 60% of you have contributed their fair share or more, 15-20% have contributed something, and the balance have contributed little to nothing. It is incomprehensible to us how that last group can go to work every week knowing that that 2 out of 3 of their fellow pilots are carrying the entire burden of defending the career of every West pilot, including their own. The lowest paid pilot in the West makes $70,000 a year. 1% of that is $700. So if you haven't contributed so far, then what on Earth are you waiting for?

We will update again when/if we find time later this week. Thanks for your continued support. Hang tough - the end is in sight.

Sincerely,

Leonidas, LLC""

 

[jetjok1]

jetjok1,

As a customer I have no real desire to listen or read a single thing from an executive who has in my mind lost all of his credibility. Judging from your comments I'm thinking you feel the same. He is IMO a documented liar on multiple occasions and can not be trusted at any level.

In all honesty he is the one person whose hand I would not shake under almost any circumstance as his words are meaningless.

PB,

Agreed 100%

 

[HPearlyretiree]

jetjok1,

As a customer I have no real desire to listen or read a single thing from an executive who has in my mind lost all of his credibility. Judging from your comments I'm thinking you feel the same. He is IMO a documented liar on multiple occasions and can not be trusted at any level.

In all honesty he is the one person whose hand I would not shake under almost any circumstance as his words are meaningless.

As a customer, I have no real desire to listen or read a single thing from a union leader who has in my mind lost all of his credibility.


Same same.

 

[EastUS]

The second part is what is troubling to me. The company is talking about the fact that pilot groups in the industry have lower cost when they are newer groups. If management within the industry could figure a way to get us all back on newhire pay scales they will do it. Future mergers will not be mergers at all but take the guise of upstarts and if you want a job your longevity clock is going to get reset every 10-12 years, to keep your scales competitive within the industry.

" if you want a job your longevity clock is going to get reset every 10-12 years, to keep your scales competitive within the industry."

I find it rather "interesting" that the concept of any "longevity clock" even exists within the west perspective.

Why should anyone EVER having their "longevity clock...get reset" prove at ALL troublesome from the west view? Isn't everything "relative"? Since when should longevity be valued at all? Within the west-nic perspective = It's clearly and entirely worthless. While I'd hate to see management groups succeed where you've started, and truly render it completely worthless....well..Should it ever happen to those now so intent on it's utter devaluation...one "might" think actual justice served.

"..get reset every 10-12 years," That's fairly generous, in that it assumes far more stability than exists within this industry. Why so much time? Why not just reset it at any moment's whim.."Snapshot"?..since it's of no expressed worth to you anyway?

I'm "almost" forced to beleive that you've some notions that longevity is actually worth something...when it's yours we're speaking of anyway......

So; Seniority is supposedly just "relative"...BUT...any/all previously associated rewards for longevity should somehow remain sacred and untouchable?

Seriously; Did the thought of greedy managements employing the exact same type of a "Theory of Relativity" never occur to anyone out there?

 

[cubfan]

NIC4,
I'm a bit confused on the west comments about east guys recalled west, then go back east. My understanding of this was the west needed pilots, so they (mgt) thought instead of hiring off the street to fill these positions, they would fill them with east furloughs for a short time. These pilots who accepted would be placed on the bottom of the west list, but were still east pilots. They were on loan to the west so to speak. If they accepted the recall deal, and lets say a furloughed pilot jr. to them also offered the same deal turned it down to wait for his/her position for east recall they would remain senior even though on a different list. Now comes the furlough,( not expected at that time period) since they were bottom of west list considering no new hires, they would be first furloughed so to speak. If, with the total number of furlough's the jr. pilot who stayed east should be furloughed, and the pilot on loan to the west should not, why would that pilot not be allowed to return to his/her proper place, since the nic had not been implimented yet and we are still in seperate op's. Thanks

 

[Megasnoop]

You forgot to talk about the bond USAPA will have to post. And you forgot to mention that Wake's remedy will not be held up just because you appeal. Like I said, unless your brilliant attorney finds fault in Wake's judicial procedure, not liking the verdict is NOT a good reason. But hey, its your dues.

Your dues, agency fees. Not sure what kind of Wake ruling would require a bond. Appeals courts find fault, not an attorney. Normally appeals are handled by attorneys who specialize in appeals and who have regular exposure to a particular appeals court. Thats probably the route wed go. Worst case Wake tells us to use the NIC. Like were going to have a contract in the next year?

Show good faith?!?! You mean USAPA tried to save face. Unable to live up to their pre-election hype, they're now looking for an excuse and you're eating it up. But that's not really surprising.

What pre-elction promises? Im sure USAPA will comply with any court order. Were not APA.

Funny, I thought all you east guys now had an aversion to med/arbs. And you're right about Parker and the NMB. If you think the NMB is your buddy, you're into another fantasy.

Dont confuse USAPA with our former ALPA-controlled, bought and paid-for MEC. They were afraid of losing their ALPA perks. We tried to get the NMB involved early this round. Company said no and will drag this out until planes are replaced with Mag-Levs. No matter how much “good faithâ€￾ we show, he wont budge he gets his final contract offer and he isnt going to let a Federal Judge tell him how to negotiate. On the NMB, we have a bit more experience with them than you, considering your one mediated contract. The purpose of the RLA is to keep the planes flying, not facilitate strikes. Tell us something we dont know. Snoopo

 

[nycbusdriver]

NIC4,
I'm a bit confused on the west comments about east guys recalled west, then go back east. My understanding of this was the west needed pilots, so they (mgt) thought instead of hiring off the street to fill these positions, they would fill them with east furloughs for a short time. These pilots who accepted would be placed on the bottom of the west list, but were still east pilots. They were on loan to the west so to speak. If they accepted the recall deal, and lets say a furloughed pilot jr. to them also offered the same deal turned it down to wait for his/her position for east recall they would remain senior even though on a different list. Now comes the furlough,( not expected at that time period) since they were bottom of west list considering no new hires, they would be first furloughed so to speak. If, with the total number of furlough's the jr. pilot who stayed east should be furloughed, and the pilot on loan to the west should not, why would that pilot not be allowed to return to his/her proper place, since the nic had not been implimented yet and we are still in seperate op's. Thanks

You are not at all confused. You understand it perfectly.

 

[nic4us]

NIC4,
I'm a bit confused on the west comments about east guys recalled west, then go back east. My understanding of this was the west needed pilots, so they (mgt) thought instead of hiring off the street to fill these positions, they would fill them with east furloughs for a short time. These pilots who accepted would be placed on the bottom of the west list, but were still east pilots. They were on loan to the west so to speak. If they accepted the recall deal, and lets say a furloughed pilot jr. to them also offered the same deal turned it down to wait for his/her position for east recall they would remain senior even though on a different list. Now comes the furlough,( not expected at that time period) since they were bottom of west list considering no new hires, they would be first furloughed so to speak. If, with the total number of furlough's the jr. pilot who stayed east should be furloughed, and the pilot on loan to the west should not, why would that pilot not be allowed to return to his/her proper place, since the nic had not been implimented yet and we are still in seperate op's. Thanks

The TA says these pilots will be considered junior to the West pilots but will retain their east seniority and be placed on the combined list according to their original East seniority. On the combined list they are junior to those that were furloughed. On the West list they were obviously furloughed. On the East list they are employed in their original place.

Considered junior to the West would mean just that, they are junior until the combined list is made, then that would be their seniority.

That is not what bothers me about this issue though. The company announces furloughs, 175 West (10%) and 125 East(<5%) give a timeline where newhires stay around longer than the West furloughs. What does USAPA do, asks if the 6 in question can move back East. USAPA does not say wait a second, you are going to violate min block hours West, You are going to have newhires on property while people senior to them are furloughed. They go to the company and ask for a special deal for these 6 instead of protecting the West. Now after the fact we have 2 grievences because USAPA was more concerned with its DOH agenda and protecting whatever East flying it can at the expense of the West.

So yes we are in seperate ops but USAPA conducts bussiness as if DOH were already the list and we all know it is not.

 

[Megasnoop]

It doesn't surprise me. The east ignores the history the west has had with Parker and his predecessors. The company RAN to mediation last time so that the NMB could "park" negotiations. ALPA saw that the road to a decent contract was too steep uphill, so they settled for a lousy one, blaming a republican administration. The original move to oust ALPA at AWA was centered on wanting to try harder to get more. USAPA cannot claim the same.

So its ALPAs fault you got a crummy contract? NMBs fault? Parkers fault? Everyone but YOUR fault? I thought you had rank and file vote. What happened there? Why were you “parked?â€￾

Without the clout of the AFL-CIO behind them, USAPA has no pull

Not being in ALPA or AFL-CIO didnt hurt APA getting released. But look at realities, Our AFA-CWA (AFL-CIO members), how many years into Section 6 and still no NMB release? As “Debbie Downerâ€￾ put it on another forum: There will be no contract to send out for a vote until 2025 the way things look right now. Hell we'll colonize Mars first. BTW, there were 2 former ALPA members on Bushs NMB, both praised by Woerth.

Rejoining ALPA, as distasteful as that may be to some, may be the only way to gain necessary leverage with other allies. Air Tran thinks so.

Allies? ALPAs a dog-eat-dog entity. Hey, didnt they try to compromise the NIC (Rice Committee, Wye River), all in the name of dues (oops, I meant in the name of fairness)? Be careful what you wish for. Air Tran obviously read the NIC. Stay independent and merge with an ALPA carrier under Alleghany-Mohawk (DOH) or join ALPA and merge under the ALPA Merger Policy. DOH or Relative seniority for an airline thats 16 years old and founded by EAL scabs. Tough choice there.
El Snoopo

 

[luvn737s]

So its ALPAs fault you got a crummy contract? NMBs fault? Parkers fault? Everyone but YOUR fault? I thought you had rank and file vote. What happened there? Why were you “parked?â€￾

Sounds like you're ready to join the rest of the class. Good.

ALPA was unwilling to continue spending money on pursuing a contract under the ATSB loan guarantee covenants. That was their contribution.

The NMB was unwilling to consider a release into 30-day cooling off. That was their contribution.

Parker hid behind the ATSB restrictions, as a reason for not offering more. That was his contribution.

AWAPPA was formed to try to pursuade ALPA to challenge the ATSB restrictions and remove them as an impediment to negotiations. It didn't stand up to the desire for some to vote in a contract and then go for more after the ATSB loans were paid off. The vote took 2 attempts before it was narrowly passed. That was their contribution.

The ATSB put restrictions on the amount of increases in labor costs, ostensibly to avoid folks feeding at the trough a la AIG. That was their contribution.

Eventually enough folks fell for the idea of taking half a loaf and getting more later. No one at that time thought we would be where we are today. That was their contribution.

What's USAPA's contribution now? That's right - NOTHING. They have failed to see beyond their dead-end strategy and stubbornness.

I imagine Bradford yelling into a megaphone to his supporter(s),"Waddawe want?" "EVERYTHING!!" "When do we want it?" "Just before I retire, so long as the west pays for it!!"

Not being in ALPA or AFL-CIO didnt hurt APA getting released.

This class is in Current Events, not Ancient Mythology.

Allies? ALPAs a dog-eat-dog entity.

ALPA has a history of getting the ear of the government. Who is the nominee to run the FAA?
Oh yeah, the former president of some union. USAPA can't even get the ear of the head of the airline. No one takes USAPA seriously, regardless of whom they sue.

 

[cubfan]

The TA says these pilots will be considered junior to the West pilots but will retain their east seniority and be placed on the combined list according to their original East seniority. On the combined list they are junior to those that were furloughed. On the West list they were obviously furloughed. On the East list they are employed in their original place.

Considered junior to the West would mean just that, they are junior until the combined list is made, then that would be their seniority.

That is not what bothers me about this issue though. The company announces furloughs, 175 West (10%) and 125 East(<5%) give a timeline where newhires stay around longer than the West furloughs. What does USAPA do, asks if the 6 in question can move back East. USAPA does not say wait a second, you are going to violate min block hours West, You are going to have newhires on property while people senior to them are furloughed. They go to the company and ask for a special deal for these 6 instead of protecting the West. Now after the fact we have 2 grievences because USAPA was more concerned with its DOH agenda and protecting whatever East flying it can at the expense of the West.

So yes we are in seperate ops but USAPA conducts bussiness as if DOH were already the list and we all know it is not.

Nic4
Thanks for your comments. I agree with you on the TA but a combined list had not been implimented yet or at that time not even decided. And yes I agree with you they are jr to west but only when on west list as a loan pilot. (as agreed on by both groups) No timeline on newhires, they should have never stayed longer, I agree. I don't agree that it was a special deal because I'm sure when the TA was agreed on by ALPA mec's of both sides, there was no expectation of furlough. If there were any mistakes made it was made by both ALPA neg. groups by not asking enough what if questions. I think what usapa did was get a clarification of the intent of what was written, and the company agreed. Lets just say a combined list came out and all were happy with it, but we don't have a contract yet to put the list into play, Alpa still on property, now the company furloughs, it would have played out the same way. The east loan pilot who kept his/her number on the east list, would have returned to their proper place on their list, and the jr. pilot on the east list would have been furloughed. I think some on the west wanted the list implimented without a new contract, ( because of the unexpected furloughs) but that would have been a violation of the TA also. If we were still in the current climate (no usapa, but alpa still the rep. group) no contract, still sep. ops, and the company furloughed, would the results have been different, and if so how? Thanks

 

[luvn737s]

I think it's hard to say "What if" on the premise that everything had worked out like it has. What if ALPA had merged both MEC's, put them into trusteeship and signed the joint contract immediately? That is as likely a scenario if Prater had done his job as any.

Then USAPA would have had legitimate birth and not have been able to advance a one-sided agenda and held west pilots hostage to their demands.

What if we were planning the negotiations for the second contract after the merger by now?

 

[cubfan]

I think it's hard to say "What if" on the premise that everything had worked out like it has. What if ALPA had merged both MEC's, put them into trusteeship and signed the joint contract immediately? That is as likely a scenario if Prater had done his job as any.

Then USAPA would have had legitimate birth and not have been able to advance a one-sided agenda and held west pilots hostage to their demands.

What if we were planning the negotiations for the second contract after the merger by now?

Luvn
I agree but were not in what if's. My point was that with alpa still on property and the furloughs still happened, the results would have been the same. The east loan pilot would have returned to his/her place on their list. Thats all. This was not a back room under the table deal that some think it was, ALPA/USAPA on this topic only, no different result, even with the current situation.

 

[cleardirect]

NIC4,
I'm a bit confused on the west comments about east guys recalled west, then go back east. My understanding of this was the west needed pilots, so they (mgt) thought instead of hiring off the street to fill these positions, they would fill them with east furloughs for a short time. These pilots who accepted would be placed on the bottom of the west list, but were still east pilots. They were on loan to the west so to speak. If they accepted the recall deal, and lets say a furloughed pilot jr. to them also offered the same deal turned it down to wait for his/her position for east recall they would remain senior even though on a different list. Now comes the furlough,( not expected at that time period) since they were bottom of west list considering no new hires, they would be first furloughed so to speak. If, with the total number of furlough's the jr. pilot who stayed east should be furloughed, and the pilot on loan to the west should not, why would that pilot not be allowed to return to his/her proper place, since the nic had not been implimented yet and we are still in seperate op's. Thanks

First thing, your premise that east pilots were on “loanâ€￾ is incorrect. When the T/A was written to was meant as a transition. Maybe 6 months to get us to a combined contract and seniority list. Once we had a contract there would be no east west pilots. There would be a single seniority list. Therefore no “loanedâ€￾ pilots, no separate ops.

The seniority list would place those recalled pilots in whatever position the arbitration decided. If it had gone somewhere close to DOH those recalled pilots would have jumped way up the list once combined. As it turns out. With the Nicolau list they are going to stay right where they are. Junior to west pilots because they were furloughed at the time. Don’t forget why they are called “recalled pilotsâ€￾.

It is essential to remember the proper history. Not the situation that we find ourselves in.

 

[cleardirect]

So its ALPAs fault you got a crummy contract? NMBs fault? Parkers fault? Everyone but YOUR fault? I thought you had rank and file vote. What happened there? Why were you “parked?â€￾

A tiny little event called 9/11. Maybe you remember it. AWA was in contract talks when that happened. As you recall the entire industry was concerned if it would even survive.

The company, ALPA and the NMB thought that it was a good idea to park all further talks until a later date.

We then had NTSB restrictions placed on us. That is the reason that we have the contract that we do. Everyone's fault, no one's fault. The situation had more to do with it then anything.

LOA 93 is that ALPA's fault? AAA MEC's fault, east pilots fault? Could it be a combination of factors or maybe just the economic situation US Airways was in.