US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 4/21-4/28

[ClueByFour]

I actually agree with Nos.

Unless the judge finds otherwise (and I don't think he will), the East group is essentially free to live under LOA 93 forever.

I also think that the company is not going to simply get out the check book in December. While I believe that LOA 93 has a snapback, I don't see Tempe giving that up without a protracted (and expensive) fight.

I also see another DFR coming if USAPA does not attempt to negotiate a joint contract that has benefits for all.

The USAPAians really, really should've thought this one all the way thru.

 

[Waketurbulence]

My point sir, is you choose to conveniently ignore, the separate operations, until an agreement. Please refer to the firewall video of jack stephen. alpa = USAPA.

Your witness sir.

My point, as you also conveniently ignore, is IF usapa is found guilty, there will immediatly be a bench trial for remedy.

One of the many things that will absolutely be discussed is the T/A language regarding seperate ratification/ops.

That stephan video WILL be used as evidence to show what has been the east strategy all along and other evidence will also show that is usapa's strategy as well.

The West is seeking INJUNCTIVE RELIEF (look it up) and will argue that the seperate ops card must be thwarted.

The Judge could take that "tactic" out of play in many different forms.

 

[nostradamus]

My point, as you also conveniently ignore, is IF usapa is found guilty, there will immediatly be a bench trial for remedy.

One of the many things that will absolutely be discussed is the T/A language regarding seperate ratification/ops.

That stephan video WILL be used as evidence to show what has been the east strategy all along and other evidence will also show that is usapa's strategy as well.

The West is seeking INJUCTIVE RELEIF (look it up) and will argue that the seperate ops card must be thwarted.

The Judge could take that "tactic" out of play in many different forms.

My post that started this intellectual discussion;;;;

"""Your comments on the transition agreement please.

Your replies to my quote was tantamount to the Youngstown tune up.''""

My post;

"""Transition agreement.

Separate ops until a collective bargaining agreement. If alpa was at the helm or USAPA, there would still be separate operations until a joint contract was agreed upon. Did either side provide an olive branch, yes East pilots did at the Wye River conference. Has the west modified their strategy, no.""


Your replies please. """

I am asking you where are you going and you are telling me where you are at. Paradigm thoughts, paradigm results.

 

[toganoflex]

My post that started this intellectual discussion;;;;

"""Your comments on the transition agreement please.

Your replies to my quote was tantamount to the Youngstown tune up.''""

My post;

"""Transition agreement.

Separate ops until a collective bargaining agreement. If alpa was at the helm or USAPA, there would still be separate operations until a joint contract was agreed upon. Did either side provide an olive branch, yes East pilots did at the Wye River conference. Has the west modified their strategy, no.""


Your replies please. """

I am asking you where your going and you are telling me where your at. Paradigm thoughts, paradigm results.

I replied Nos.

Your response please.

 

[cleardirect]

There is a seniority award, then there is a joint contract, this agreement leads to joint operations. Who is hostage and whom are the hostage takers? Name a time the west wavered on the seniority and were ready to negotiate. I will help you, there was never an incident of this.

Oh incorrect again. The west negotiated when it was time to negotiate. You are very good at posting videos and old quotes. I am sure that you have access to the ALPA merger policy. Please review. It quite clearly lays out the procedure for seniority negotiation. Step one. Negotiation! That is when the west negotiated. Did the east negotiate at that time? No.

Step two. Mediation. Did the east negotiate at that time? No. Did the west negotiate at that time? Yes
Step three Arbitration. Did the east negotiate at that time? No Did the west negotiate at that time? Yes.
After the award was released. Here is where your research skills come in. Point to the part of the ALPA merger policy that requires negotiations at Wye River.

Funny I could not find it either. Maybe you have more skill than I do. The time to negotiate is before the final conclusion, not after. If the west wins this law suit are you going to want to negotiate that also? I don’t think a federal judge will be very accepting after he rules. But give it a try if you must.

 

[Megasnoop]

So much bull, so little bandwidth

Judge Wake is no Judge Ito. President Bush picked a man with integrity. I'm sure his Ivy League education did not cloud his moral compass.

Ivy League=Integrity? Bush= Yale (Harvard MBA), John Kerry (Yale), Bill and Hillary (Yale Law). Ito? Graduated from #1 public law school in US (UC, Berkeley). He had a track record in the LA DAs office. Wake had a track record in a business law firm. Bush appointments=integrity? Alberto Gonzales, Dick Cheney, Scooter Libby, Don Rumsfeld, Michael (FEMA) Brown, Richard Armitage. We get that, 79.

That U turn "group" is comprised of ONE conspiracy theory loving nut job with an email address. To say U-turn has no credibility is the understatement of the month.

Are you saying their furlough predictions never happened?

Are you SURE the worst Judge Wake can do is tell you to use the Nicolau list? My guess for possible damage is $1 million/day from USAPA to the Class of West pilots until you decide on your own to codify the Nic list. Judge Wake put this trial on the fast-track because he recognized the West was suffering under USAPA. I'm glad you're so confident about the worst he can do to you.

Guesses are like opinions, everyones got one. He put it on the fast-track because he was dealt a one-of-a-kind opportunity to stick it to a labor union (and he had a trial cancellation back in February).

The only thing that would accomplish is to force this pilot group into being non-union. $1 million/day would bankrupt USAPA, to be sure. That's one way to get rid of it, I suppose. If you think somehow the rank-and-file pilots of the east can be held financially liable for your pipe dreams, you are sadly mistaken. Certainly USAPA can be held liable, but such a reward would simply mean they would close up shop.

Spot on, NYC. A Bush appointee union-busts. Not sure where 717 is coming from, except St. Louis, where he was at the bottom of the TWA list and now bottom of the LCC list. But one point, only the jury can make a monetary settlement. Where the damages? Wake can fine the union for not complying with a court order, but faced with a "do-it-or-else" ultimatim, does anyonee really think USAPA and its leadership is that stupid not to comply with a court order (pending appeal)? Shows a total lack of understanding how the court system works. Even the APA situation, with a totally anti-labor Bush, Sr appointee, the union had to thumb its nose at the judge to be held in contempt. That judge even fined the top 2 APA officers. does anyone think our leadership would risk personal fines?

Management wins BIG TIME, and you, my friend, join us in LOA 93 heaven because there will no longer be a signatory to your contract (or the east's.) No signatory, no contract.

Spot on again, NYC. If we go out of business, the company can do whatever it wants. It would take months to meet NMB requirements to vote in another union. With no one to enforce the half-dead TA, all those non-profitable West routes and bases are gone. And with USAPA out of busines, west cant sue DFR for USAPA losing their jobs.

One thing to keep in mind, IF (and still a big "if") AOL wins, they represent the class and in that position, they can negotiate for the class with USAPA after a win but before appeal. ALPAs done that before, so theres precedent. Sure, theyd have the leverage, but a bird-in-the-hand. Thats a real gut check. Anyone in the class who didnt like that could always opt out and fiile their own suit.

On the upside for us, with no CBA, we dont have to go through the grieivance process to get our $70M and LOA 93 pay expirations. We can sue under straight contract law. Im sure we can fund an East class-action on that. Meanwhile, with no one to bargain for us, separate operations continue unless parker does something on his own to combine, wriite his own seniority list. Downside, with no union, we all work at the companys pleasure. They can whack anyone they want. The possibilities are mind-boggling on what either side can do.

A bankrupt union is still a legal collective bargaining agent. I don't understand why you think USAPA would go away before an official election.Well, I know the judge won't fine y'all individually but USAPA could very well assess y'all to keep the union solvent.True. That's what your side started when you withdrew from joint negotiations in 2007. Don't blame us.

A CBA without any money to enforce a contract is a what? The power to tax (fine) is the power to destroy. Reagan/Bush did that to the Teamsters back in the 80s. Put them into trusteeship and nearly destroyed that union. Not that I think Wake has any grounds to fine after the gavel comes down. Even if we lose, hed have to give USAPA an opportunity to comply with whatever non-performance penalty he applies.

This is a DFR suit gentlemen, not a claim for a slot machine that did not pay off due to a malfunction in the system. Lack of participation and vandalism, made it very difficult for USAPA to represent you.

West gloats under the misconception that the wests refusal to participate and their low-class actions wont make it into the testimony. Smugness before the fall.

But its a beautiful morning over here in Europe. Time to enjoy the sites (and find a face mask, latex gloves and some sani-wipes). Snoop

 

[nycbusdriver]

I actually agree with Nos.

Unless the judge finds otherwise (and I don't think he will), the East group is essentially free to live under LOA 93 forever.

I also think that the company is not going to simply get out the check book in December. While I believe that LOA 93 has a snapback, I don't see Tempe giving that up without a protracted (and expensive) fight.

I also see another DFR coming if USAPA does not attempt to negotiate a joint contract that has benefits for all.

The USAPAians really, really should've thought this one all the way thru.

I don't see a protracted (and expensive) fight. It will go to grievance and fast-track arbitration fairly quickly. The clock starts ticking on the snap-back on January 1, no matter how long it takes to resolve.

If the pilots prevail in the arbitration, and the company balks, it would likely mean a major dispute and near immediate access to self-help. Once the operation becomes too unreliable for people to book, Tempe will likely cave, or shut the doors. Many of us on the east don't care which anymore (and that's important for Tempe to understand.)

 

[Richard]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

You have ignored the previous warnings on this thread about your behavior, and continued to post personal attacks and insults and make personal remarks about other posters. I just spent a good amount of time deleting posts because they violate the rules, and a couple of you now have some time off.

IT STOPS NOW.

The next post which makes a personal remark or attack aimed at another poster, will not only be deleted, it will get the poster a 14 day suspension WITHOUT COMMENT. Childish behavior on this board will NOT change the outcome of the court case or the eventual seniority list, so JUST STOP. You bring discredit to yourselves, your position and your profession.

PLEASE OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD.

 

[pilotn79]

So much bull, so little bandwidth
Ivy League=Integrity? Bush= Yale (Harvard MBA), John Kerry (Yale), Bill and Hillary (Yale Law). Ito? Graduated from #1 public law school in US (UC, Berkeley). He had a track record in the LA DAs office. Wake had a track record in a business law firm. Bush appointments=integrity? Alberto Gonzales, Dick Cheney, Scooter Libby, Don Rumsfeld, Michael (FEMA) Brown, Richard Armitage. We get that, 79.
[/quote
I know that Bush was not popular in your neck of the woods and he still was elected twice. He made tough decisions that were not popular with liberals. This is not a popularity contest like Miss USA. Thank you Miss California for giving the morally correct answer and not the one they wanted to hear.

I applaud him for confronting our enemies and not patting them on the back like I have seen recently with our current head of state. Thank God we had the right man in office on 9/11.

USAPA has a morally corrupt foundation and I will continue to oppose this organization for that reason.

 

[wopr21]

It still cracks me up that those that choose not to pay dues expect representation from their union.

Unbelievable ...

 

[ClueByFour]

I don't see a protracted (and expensive) fight. It will go to grievance and fast-track arbitration fairly quickly. The clock starts ticking on the snap-back on January 1, no matter how long it takes to resolve.

If the pilots prevail in the arbitration, and the company balks, it would likely mean a major dispute and near immediate access to self-help. Once the operation becomes too unreliable for people to book, Tempe will likely cave, or shut the doors. Many of us on the east don't care which anymore (and that's important for Tempe to understand.)

Your assumption (which is hopefully correct) is that the East pilot group wins the arbitration. I point you to the recent AA furlough language arbitration as an example of something which looked very cut and dried and the pilots lost.

It'll be grieved, sure, but then it'll go to arbitration. That's gonna take awhile. I believe if the company loses arbitration it will then either seek injunctive relief or force-majeure the East group before paying a dime (not sure what the FM chunks of the post-BKII East contract say). If you listen to what the company is saying, they don't seem exactly willing to step up and do the right thing.

For the sake of argument, let's accept the premise that LOA 93's snapback takes place. If USAPA fails to deliver contract improvements for the West, it's entirely likely that the class can return to court with another DFR.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

It still cracks me up that those that choose not to pay dues expect representation from their union.

Unbelievable ...

It still cracks me up that a union that was formed to get out of a binding arbitration agreement and to screw the west over expects those people to pay dues.

Unbelievable....

 

[pilotn79]

It still cracks me up that those that choose not to pay dues expect representation from their union.

Unbelievable ...

Not until this association lives up to it's obligation to Duty Of Fair Representation. We are working on a solution. Check back in a few weeks.

 

[Metroyet]

Not until this association lives up to it's obligation to Duty Of Fair Representation. We are working on a solution. Check back in a few weeks.

There you go again, demanding your Rights as an American citizen. I guess you missed the memo, USAPA is your new master and overlord!!

 

[wopr21]

It still cracks me up that a union that was formed to get out of a binding arbitration agreement and to screw the west over expects those people to pay dues.

Unbelievable....

So you decide when its the right time to pay dues not the agency shop rules.

Usapa was not formed out of thin air to disadvantage the west. It was voted in legally to get rid of the previous so called fair representation (not) we had before.

Its sad that you think that ALPA was fair representation.

Unbelievable ...