US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 4/21-4/28

[cleardirect]

Ivy League=Integrity? Bush= Yale (Harvard MBA), John Kerry (Yale), Bill and Hillary (Yale Law). Ito? Graduated from #1 public law school in US (UC, Berkeley). He had a track record in the LA DAs office. Wake had a track record in a business law firm. Bush appointments=integrity? Alberto Gonzales, Dick Cheney, Scooter Libby, Don Rumsfeld, Michael (FEMA) Brown, Richard Armitage. We get that, 79.

This has what to do with anything?

Guesses are like opinions, everyones got one. He put it on the fast-track because he was dealt a one-of-a-kind opportunity to stick it to a labor union (and he had a trial cancellation back in February).

"Stick it to labor" I think that is what USAPA is trying to do to the west labor.

Spot on, NYC. A Bush appointee union-busts. Not sure where 717 is coming from, except St. Louis, where he was at the bottom of the TWA list and now bottom of the LCC list. But one point, only the jury can make a monetary settlement. Where the damages? Wake can fine the union for not complying with a court order, but faced with a "do-it-or-else" ultimatim, does anyonee really think USAPA and its leadership is that stupid not to comply with a court order (pending appeal)? Shows a total lack of understanding how the court system works. Even the APA situation, with a totally anti-labor Bush, Sr appointee, the union had to thumb its nose at the judge to be held in contempt. That judge even fined the top 2 APA officers. does anyone think our leadership would risk personal fines?

Incorrect again. The damages phase of this trial starts immediately after the jury trial. The damages portion will be a bench trial. The JUDGE will decide damages. The jury is only going to decide liable or not liable.

"does anyonee really think USAPA and its leadership is that stupid not to comply with a court order"

After every bone headed move this union has pulled you can really ask that question with a straight face? Of course usapa is that stupid. Read the latest usapa watch for a list of failures. This is the same association that formed to avoid binding arbitration. So yes I think that usapa is that stupid not to comply.

Is that going to be the excuse if usapa loses? That it was a bush appointee not the violation of law that caused usapa to lose. This is not an anti-union law suit. This is an anti usapa law suit. The west is not against unions the west is against being treated unfairly.

Spot on again, NYC. If we go out of business, the company can do whatever it wants. It would take months to meet NMB requirements to vote in another union. With no one to enforce the half-dead TA, all those non-profitable West routes and bases are gone. And with USAPA out of busines, west cant sue DFR for USAPA losing their jobs.

One thing to keep in mind, IF (and still a big "if") AOL wins, they represent the class and in that position, they can negotiate for the class with USAPA after a win but before appeal. ALPAs done that before, so theres precedent. Sure, theyd have the leverage, but a bird-in-the-hand. Thats a real gut check. Anyone in the class who didnt like that could always opt out and fiile their own suit.

On the upside for us, with no CBA, we dont have to go through the grieivance process to get our $70M and LOA 93 pay expirations. We can sue under straight contract law. Im sure we can fund an East class-action on that. Meanwhile, with no one to bargain for us, separate operations continue unless parker does something on his own to combine, wriite his own seniority list. Downside, with no union, we all work at the companys pleasure. They can whack anyone they want. The possibilities are mind-boggling on what either side can do.

" ALPAs done that before, so theres precedent."

Does everyone need to be reminded again that ALPA is not the CBA? So what ALPA did is not relevant. There will be no negotiations. Since usapa forced single carrier status there is no one to negotiate with. Again trying to negotiate after the fact. When is the east going to learn the timing of things?

This I need an explanation for. If usapa folds up because they declare bankruptcy. Just who is going to sue the company to get your precious $70 million and nonexistent snap backs? There will be no leadership no one to carry it forward. Also there will be no power to tax. No dues money. That means someone would have to step up and start an organization similar to AOL to raise funds and hire a good law firm. Care to take a guess on the time line for that event to occur?

West gloats under the misconception that the wests refusal to participate and their low-class actions wont make it into the testimony. Smugness before the fall.

Low class actions. Another opinion. As you say everyone has one. You really do need to read the filings.

Document 362 Order on motions in limine. Motion number 6. The one that calls evidence of bad acts. "inflammatory, confusing and of little probative value". That motion was granted. So no that will not make it to testimony. If it does enter then someone could be held in contempt of court. Because the judge disallowed that.

 

[exB717Flyer]

He put it on the fast-track because he was dealt a one-of-a-kind opportunity to stick it to a labor union (and he had a trial cancellation back in February).

I love it: you already have another scapegoat lined up. If/when the appellate court refuses to hear your case what excuse will you come up with then? Whose pocket are they in?

Not sure where 717 is coming from, except St. Louis, where he was at the bottom of the TWA list and now bottom of the LCC list.

Actually, before the furloughs started I had 400 junior to me on a list of 2300 and I was bidding at the top 25% of my status. Hardly the bottom. And BTW, I'm from Chicago. South Side. The baddest part of town.

If we go out of business, the company can do whatever it wants.

I still don't understand why you think a bankrupt union is the same as being out-of-business. USAPA already has zero leverage with the company so I don't see any big change even if it is bankrupted by a court judgement. In any case it's a risk I'm willing to take for the sake of justice.

 

[nic4us]

So you decide when its the right time to pay dues not the agency shop rules.

Its sad that you think that ALPA was fair representation.

Unbelievable ...

Correct, I decide when to pay dues, not the agency shop rules, because the illegitimmate union in control, has no right to collect dues without representation.

Generally the West does not consider ALPA fair representation. For instance they sided with the east, to the detriment of the West, after the east got a favorable award in the Nicolau decision.

 

[prechilill]

I love it: you already have another scapegoat lined up. If/when the appellate court refuses to hear your case what excuse will you come up with then?

Remember the days when the USAPA cheerleaders were so sure, so smug about their campaign to relieve Nicolau? It was in the bag, a done deal, like negotiating a side letter to a contract we were told. Well, somebody was sold a bridge to nowhere and it looks like it wasn't the west. Thank goodness for our unity and support of Leonidas (save 400 holdouts). Now we see even the most ardant USAPA supporters tacitly admitting they have hit a brick wall and the comment you referenced from the other poster above shows it clearly. Oh, how things have changed! I have so much faith in our beautiful country and our fair judicial system- it is unsurpassed on this planet because if we were any where else USAPA may have just gotten away with their devious act.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

So you decide when its the right time to pay dues not the agency shop rules.

Usapa was not formed out of thin air to disadvantage the west. It was voted in legally to get rid of the previous so called fair representation (not) we had before.

Its sad that you think that ALPA was fair representation.

Unbelievable ...

I'm not talking about ALPA and their representation, but its odd, you don't think ALPA was fair, but you won't allow someone else to think that USAPA is fair? Oh, the hypocrisy.

USAPA was formed so that the east could get out of their signed, binding arbitration. Its as transparent as the water in St. Lucia on a sunny calm day.

 

[pilotn79]

There you go again, demanding your Rights as an American citizen. I guess you missed the memo, USAPA is your new master and overlord!!

I don't answer to USAPA, I have not joined and continue to oppose this association. As a born again Christian, I answer to a much higher authority.

 

[toganoflex]

Usapa was not formed out of thin air to disadvantage the west. It was voted in legally to get rid of the previous so called fair representation (not) we had before.

Wrong!

Bradford's letters say otherwise.

 

[toganoflex]

It still cracks me up that those that choose not to pay dues expect representation from their union.

Unbelievable ...

Absolutely they should expect representation.

A grievance by a non-member, even one in bad standing, may benefit the entire pilot group.

And the law requires it.

Nuff said.

 

[toganoflex]

Wrong!

Bradford's letters say otherwise.

And let me add what I was referring to in the previous post. Some of Bradford's finest evidence for the Addington case.

"I next specifically asked him about the formation of a new bargaining agent as an avenue of
advance to get around this award."

and this one too:

"If ALPA is not there, the award is not there. The award lives with ALPA and
when ALPA leaves so does the award. [my emphasis] "

He even emphasized that particular sentence.

 

[nic4us]

Once again proving beyond any doubt why AWA was the LAST resort for ANYONE in career choice.

Sweety - if you think this is going to end in a court room "in Arizona" .............

This is going to be a whole lot of fun!

Boeing Driver

Uneducated simpleminded attacks of AWA and its pilot workforce always amuse me on this board.

You are correct it is "going to be a whole lot of fun !" and as we continue forward please feel free to keep me entertained with your opinions toward AWA, and better yet your reasons why it was so great to work at USAlwaysinbankruptcywithanotherroundoffurloughsscrewingupyourcareeradv
ancementwhiletherestoftheindustryproducesairlinescapableofgrowthandexpa
nsionunderminingyoubussinessmodelandputtingyououtofbussinessAir.

 

[toganoflex]

Uneducated simpleminded attacks of AWA and its pilot workforce always amuse me on this board.

You are correct it is "going to be a whole lot of fun !" and as we continue forward please feel free to keep me entertained with your opinions toward AWA, and better yet your reasons why it was so great to work at USAlwaysinbankruptcywithanotherroundoffurloughsscrewingupyourcareeradv
ancementwhiletherestoftheindustryproducesairlinescapableofgrowthandexp
a
nsionunderminingyoubussinessmodelandputtingyououtofbussinessAir.

I don't ever remember having to have an "Operation Restore Confidence" at AWA.

Maybe an east pilot can tell everyone what that was all about.

 

[ussnark]

I don't ever remember having to have an "Operation Restore Confidence" at AWA.

Maybe an east pilot can tell everyone what that was all about.

HP hasn't been around long enough or been big enough. The east pilots just don't want to repeat that same environment, inevitable with the "nic".

 

[toganoflex]

HP hasn't been around long enough or been big enough.

What does that have to do with "Operation Restore Confidence"?

You still have told anyone what that was about either.

 

[Harry Callahan]

As someone on the outside who does not understand this:
Some one please explain to me what binding arbitration is & if it was agreed to what's the problem?

 

[toganoflex]

As someone on the outside who does not understand this:
Some one please explain to me what binding arbitration is & if it was agreed to what's the problem?

By definition and by the way most of the world understands it:

"The submission of a dispute to an unbiased third person designated by the parties to the controversy, who agree in advance to comply with the award—a decision to be issued after a hearing at which both parties have an opportunity to be heard."

But if your an east pilot you need to add:

"...unless we don't like it then it doesn't count."


It was, ironically, the east the withdrew from negotiations and moved to process to arbitration. The east even struck for Nicolau (I believe he was their third choice so he was on their short list).

Both side presented their cases and that's well-documented through the transcripts that were provided the west pilots and mysteriously withheld from the east by their local.

The east shot for the moon, lost, and here we are.