US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 4/21-4/28

[Waketurbulence]

As someone on the outside who does not understand this:
Some one please explain to me what binding arbitration is & if it was agreed to what's the problem?

Now if we can get nine more people on the "outside" like this...

Harry, the east pilots think that if you get divorced and have to pay your ex, all you have to do is change your name and that will keep you from having to pay.

 

[hp_fa]

Folks remember that this whole matter is going before third parties tomorrow and that no one knows what will happen when that occurs. I am merely suggesting that everyone tone down the remarks to some extent until after one or more decisions are handed down.

Remember Forrest Gump's words, "life is like a box of chocolates....."

 

[ussnark]

You still have told anyone what that was about either.

I still did? what? Did I ever say I would tell anyone anything?

Do I detect, um, sweat?

 

[700UW]

Togo,

Lets see HP was saved by TPG and CO years ago, the FAA almost shut them down due to mtc issues, had the largest fine levied upon them in history (Up until last year).

And could not grow the airline without FAA permission.

Pretty much sums up HP's problems.

Read Here

The early years were a time of high enthusiasm and energy for the small airline. Mass hirings brought thousands of people applying for a few positions. Employees were also owners - each employee, unless state law prevented it, was required to purchase stock in America West when they were hired, usually 20% of their first year's salary. Many employees took loans from the company to purchase their required stock, and these loans were repaid through payroll deductions - an unusual way to fund growth.

The house of cards was about to collapse. On top of high oil prices, high fuel consumption on the 747, low yields, a high debt load, and no improvement in sight, the airline filed for bankruptcy on June 27.

The signs had been obvious. Pay and hiring freezes were first established, followed by a 10% pay cut for all employees, and the elimination of free cocktails, newspapers, and free flights for employees. Service to 10 cities had been cut before the filing. Morale came crashing down, as high-flying America West, the darling of deregulation, fell to earth. Bankruptcy would prove to be a long, turbulent process, costing Beauvais and Conway their leadership roles in the airline, as well as all employee-owned stock. Many employees found themselves in the unenviable position of having to pay back loans on worthless stock to the company if they left.

The first major cutback occurred in September, when the fleet was reduced to 103 aircraft (from 126). Debtor In Possession (DIP) financing was obtained from lessors G.P.A. and Kawasaki, in return for Airbus 320 lease options. Northwest Airlines also contributed $15 million in financing, secured by the Honolulu-Nagoya route authority.

A well-publicized FAA fine was imposed on the airline in June. The record $5 million fine was imposed over maintenance issues, primarily oversight and changes in recommended procedures. America West admitted no wrongdoing, and half the fine was forgiven after a restructuring of the maintenance oversight procedures. Eventually, this would lead to yet another change in heavy maintenance contractors.

February 17, 2000 would prove to be an omen for the year. Eagle, the automated dispatch system, went down for over five hours. At the time, America West had no backup dispatch system, leading to over 280 cancellations over three days. Passengers were left stranded around the system, boosting the industry-high complaint rate. America West was rapidly becoming known as "America Worst" for its customer service and operational problems.

The relationship with the FAA was poor, leading to further restrictions on growth until the FAA was assured maintenance could handle the extra aircraft. The airline was not in good shape.

Basically both airlines had their problems and issues.

 

[Bear96]

Actually, I think it goes further than that. The contracts are between the company and pilots with the union just being the representative of the pilots, much like a lawyer represents a client. The contract doesn't go away just because the union does any more than a contract signed by a lawyer on behalf of the client goes away just because the lawyer retires.

Jim

. . . or because the client fires the first lawyer and subseqently engages a second.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

700, yes AWA had it's issues, but none of that involved flight operations. Some people love to slam AWA pilots as not being able to find employment at "better" airlines, yet for 24 years up to the merger, flight operations perfromance was exceptional. The record bears this out.

 

[700UW]

Being fined, having the FAA almost shutting you down and needing permission to add planes and grow would be considered flight ops problems to me.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Remember the days when the USAPA cheerleaders were so sure, so smug about their campaign to relieve Nicolau?

Well, maybe the USAPA "cheerleaders" were saying that, but the USAPA leadership wasn't. The pilots were given a choice: ALPA (and you get Nicolau, guaranteed,) or USAPA (and MAYBE not Nicolau.)

USAPA never guaranteed ANYTHING other than that they were not ALPA. That alone was sufficient to sway the vote once the ALPA spin and FUD machine kicked into high gear.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Being fined, having the FAA almost shutting you down and needing permission to add planes and grow would be considered flight ops problems to me.

Ok, I won't make an argument out of it. But despite all those things generated indirectly, flight operations always performed flawlessly despite whatever else was going on. And that has everything to do with the caliber of folks in flight ops.

 

[prechilill]

Well, maybe the USAPA "cheerleaders" were saying that, but the USAPA leadership wasn't. The pilots were given a choice: ALPA (and you get Nicolau, guaranteed,) or USAPA (and MAYBE not Nicolau.)

USAPA never guaranteed ANYTHING other than that they were not ALPA. That alone was sufficient to sway the vote once the ALPA spin and FUD machine kicked into high gear.

Just search YouTube for "USAPA Phoenix" and look at video 5. You may want to rethink your above comment. Just a suggestion.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

FWIW, The veiled implication here is the crashes US Air had in the '90's as opposed to to none at HP. If one defines "Flight Operations" in that rather narrow scope then you are indeed correct.


However if you broaden the scope and examine how HP got the nickname "America Worst" then the argument presented by 700UW becomes more valid and IMO a bit more truthfull

You drifted there just a bit, PB. Every airline gets its nickname. Some less flattering than others. Ever heard the term "Useless?"

The not-so-veiled implication of some of the comments regarding the alleged "poor operations" at AWA were an attempt at trying to link cause and effect to the pilots "who couldn't get hired at a REAL airline."

Whatever one may think about operations at AWA, one cannot point a finger at the group of aviators we have here and say: there's your problem, right there. It's just not true. Our landings exactly equal our number of take-offs. And everyone* has walked away.

I don't wish to comment further, but, the operational safety records for the two seperate airlines are as different as night and day.


* the occasional medical issue excepted

 

[700UW]

June 1971; Allegheny Airlines Convair 580; New Haven, CT: The aircraft crashed about 3/8 of a mile (600 m) short of the runway threshold during landing in reduced visibility. Two of the three crew members and 26 of the 28 passengers were killed.


February 1979; Allegheny Airlines Mohawk 299; Clarksburg, VA: The aircraft crashed during takeoff due to snow on the wings. One of the three crew members and one of the 22 passengers were killed.


September 1989; USAir 737-400; La Guardia Airport, New York: The crew incorrectly trimmed the rudder for takeoff and were forced to abort the takeoff. The aircraft overran the runway and was partially submerged in water. Two of the 55 passengers were killed.


1 February 1991; USAir 737-300; Los Angeles, CA: The USAir flight was cleared to land on a runway which also had a Skywest Metro III on the runway awaiting takeoff. The aircraft collided and burst into flames. Two of the six crew members and 20 of the 83 passengers on the USAir jet were killed. All 10 passengers and two crew members on the Metro III were killed.


3 January 1992; USAir Express (Commutair) Beech 1900; Gabriel, NY: The aircraft hit high ground on approach 3.9 miles (6.2 km) from the runway at about 1600 feet (490 meters) above minimum altitude at that point. The NTSB believes that the glide slope indicator may have been unreliable due to precipitation static. One of the two crew members and one of the two passengers were killed.


22 March 1992; USAir F28-4000; New York, NY: The aircraft crashed just after takeoff in snowy conditions due to icing on the aircraft's wings. Three of the four crew members and 24 of the 47 passengers were killed.


2 July 1994; USAir DC9-31; Charlotte, NC: The aircraft encountered heavy rain and wind shear during approach at about 3.5 miles (5.6 km) from the runway. The crew executed attempted to go around for another landing attempt, but the aircraft could not overcome the wind shear. All five crew members survived, but 37 of the 52 passengers were killed.


8 September 1994; USAir 737-300; near Pittsburgh, PA: The aircraft lost control at about 6,000 feet (1830 meters) during approach. All five crew members and 127 passengers were killed.
Other Accident Information
NTSB Accident Summary
NTSB Accident Report
Additional NTSB Background Information

8 January 2003; US Airways Express (Air Midwest) Beech 1900; Charlotte, NC: The aircraft crashed into a maintenance hanger at the airport shortly after it departed for a flight to Greenville, SC. The NTSB determined that the loss of pitch control resulted from a combination of an incorrectly rigged elevator control system and by the airplane’s aft center of gravity being substantially aft of the certified limit. Both pilots and all 19 passengers were killed in the crash.
NTSB Accident Summary
NTSB Accident Report
Additional NTSB Background Information
Fatal Beech 1900 Events

15 January 2009; US Airways A320-200, Flight 1549; New York, NY: The aircraft was on a scheduled passenger flight from New York (LaGuardia) to Charlotte, NC The aircraft struck a flock of birds shortly after takeoff and experienced a loss of power to both engines. The crew was able to successfully ditch the aircraft in the Hudson River near midtown Manhattan. The aircraft reached an maximum altitude of about 3200 feet before it began to descend. After ditching, all five crew members and 150 passengers evacuated the aircraft. One passenger sustained serious injuries.

So only a couple were pilot error.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I am personally not trying to say the pilots at AWA are better than anywhere else, not at all. I am trying to say, though, that the implication that AWA pilots are bottom of the barrel who couldn't get on anywhere else just does not hold water. Thats all.

There is no pilot that could not potentially end up being a dead pilot, for whatever reason. But for the grace of God.....

 

[Richard]

KEEP ON TOPIC and stop diverting the thread to an East vs. West competition.

The safety records of HP and US have no bearing on the issue at hand, and the discussion just serves to create more arguing and divisiveness.

It's time to quit the rhetoric and realize that whatever happens is out of your hands, and all this fighting does nothing to enhance your professional image..with each other OR the public at large....

 

[hp_fa]

This argument gets no one anywhere.

The old AWA problem that 700 refers to was primarilly a maintenance records issue and had little, if anything, to do with the actual operation of the aircraft.

As for flight operations issues that involve injury and/or death isn't it best to keep that kind of talk to the crew rooms and training opportunities?

Addendum - I cross-posted with Richard but I don't think I need to amend a word that I said and will leave it to the Mods to delete or amend if necessary.