Us Airways Pilots Call For Removal Of Siegel,cohen
- Thread starter KCFlyer
- Start date
usfliboi
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- Aug 20, 2002
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Piney My thoughts exactly !!!!!!!!!!! All be it even if those things had not happened there would still be complaints. Dave was given a nasty task He did not create the mess. Ill repeat again he has kept most of his promises and most of all i feel made an effort to keep bk labor friendly. He could have slashed to the core with employees and didnt have to give us choices of ratifying contracts. It amazes me that people do not realize yet look through life in their own homemade rose colored glasses. Im not saying hes perfect but you wont find a perfect ceo. Most employees understand with the exceptions you see here. As youre aware flying around for the most part employees you talk to are worried and discouraged but still have faith. Still do their jobs and do not try to blast this company time and time again.PineyBob said:
Took the company into bankruptcy- Siegel
Exited bankruptcy too early-Siegel
Transfers routes to other companies (MSA, CHQ)-Siegel
Created a demoralized workforce-Siegel
Failed to recognize the failures of prior mangement, Wof/Gangwal and rewarded them with Millions of dollars-Siegel
Etc, Etc, Etc....
Exited bankruptcy too early-Siegel
Transfers routes to other companies (MSA, CHQ)-Siegel
Created a demoralized workforce-Siegel
Failed to recognize the failures of prior mangement, Wof/Gangwal and rewarded them with Millions of dollars-Siegel
Etc, Etc, Etc....
BoeingBoy
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- Nov 9, 2003
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The RJ, while needed in some markets, has a higher CASM than mainline.
They still operate largely thru the inefficient hub/spoke system.
It was the inefficient hub/spoke business model that Siegel had every opportunity to change and hasn't. With the plan supposedly coming out after the first of the year, by the time any real implementation is started Siegel will have lost a year since emerging from BK and two years since coming here.
Jim
They still operate largely thru the inefficient hub/spoke system.
It was the inefficient hub/spoke business model that Siegel had every opportunity to change and hasn't. With the plan supposedly coming out after the first of the year, by the time any real implementation is started Siegel will have lost a year since emerging from BK and two years since coming here.
Jim
fatherabraham
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- Sep 27, 2002
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I believe that we need to ponder WHY alpa took this action. Alpa has more factual info than us web board folks. They have the most to loose and future negotiations
( employee concessions/ Mgt enrichment thru stock) are once againd happening behind closed doors.
My take is that Alpa is really saying in easy speak
" Hey Bronner ...so now you own an airline and you wana run it with an out dated mgt style. Sorry that will not work nor has it been. Our collective careers ( every pilot is a business entity that has been ROBBED by powers in control) are worth fighting for and we will no longer enable the " power brokers " to steal previously earned income. In fact we are finally becoming proactive and shining the spotlight on you. Keep it up and perhaps we will actually drag you through the court systems and let them decide if anyone should go to jail. Happy Holidays Mr. Bronner "
( employee concessions/ Mgt enrichment thru stock) are once againd happening behind closed doors.
My take is that Alpa is really saying in easy speak
" Hey Bronner ...so now you own an airline and you wana run it with an out dated mgt style. Sorry that will not work nor has it been. Our collective careers ( every pilot is a business entity that has been ROBBED by powers in control) are worth fighting for and we will no longer enable the " power brokers " to steal previously earned income. In fact we are finally becoming proactive and shining the spotlight on you. Keep it up and perhaps we will actually drag you through the court systems and let them decide if anyone should go to jail. Happy Holidays Mr. Bronner "
BoeingBoy
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- Nov 9, 2003
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Bob,
"Actually the whole RJ transition is/was an attempt to change the business model, as was expansion of the european and carribean routes."
I said -
The RJ, while needed in some markets, has a higher CASM than mainline.
They still operate largely thru the inefficient hub/spoke system.
It was the inefficient hub/spoke business model that Siegel had every opportunity to change and hasn't. With the plan supposedly coming out after the first of the year, by the time any real implementation is started Siegel will have lost a year since emerging from BK and two years since coming here.
I should have added that adding RJ's was merely adding a different type of equipment to the EXISTING BUSINESS MODEL. More European & Caribbean flying is just shuffling assets around in the SAME BUSINESS MODEL.
The business model isn't about what type of planes you fly (although fleet simplification would help) or where you fly them from the hubs, it is the reliance on the old style hub/spoke system.
Jim
"Actually the whole RJ transition is/was an attempt to change the business model, as was expansion of the european and carribean routes."
I said -
The RJ, while needed in some markets, has a higher CASM than mainline.
They still operate largely thru the inefficient hub/spoke system.
It was the inefficient hub/spoke business model that Siegel had every opportunity to change and hasn't. With the plan supposedly coming out after the first of the year, by the time any real implementation is started Siegel will have lost a year since emerging from BK and two years since coming here.
I should have added that adding RJ's was merely adding a different type of equipment to the EXISTING BUSINESS MODEL. More European & Caribbean flying is just shuffling assets around in the SAME BUSINESS MODEL.
The business model isn't about what type of planes you fly (although fleet simplification would help) or where you fly them from the hubs, it is the reliance on the old style hub/spoke system.
Jim
The "evils" of the hub-and-spoke system are wildly exaggerated. Yes it leads to higher costs but it also leads to higher revenues. Even Southwest has a hub-and-spoke system, but the media in their current frenzy of "Hub-and-spoke bad, LCCs good" have chosen to ignore that and not call a spade a spade. What the heck are BWI, BNA, LAS, and so on for WN? They are hubs! (Though WN uses more of a rolling hub instead of a peak bank concept.)
Especially for a route structure like U's, hub and spoke is realistically the only way to go. How much point-to-point demand is there from, say, BTV to GSO? ELM to ROA? Certainly not enough to support multiple departures per day. As Seigel recently pointed out, if U were to abandon the hub-and-spoke system, U would be just a shadow of what it is now. Many smaller markets would not be served at all if they could not be spokes in the hub system.
Especially for a route structure like U's, hub and spoke is realistically the only way to go. How much point-to-point demand is there from, say, BTV to GSO? ELM to ROA? Certainly not enough to support multiple departures per day. As Seigel recently pointed out, if U were to abandon the hub-and-spoke system, U would be just a shadow of what it is now. Many smaller markets would not be served at all if they could not be spokes in the hub system.
ITRADE
Veteran
Both bear and bob are correct. Virtually every airline operates a hub and spoke system. Southwest's ops at BWI, MDW, LAS, and PHX are very much hub operations - albeit at a depeaked level as mentioned by Bear.
Of course, some will argue that many cities have direct service to many cities that are not the aforementioned hubs. This is true. But this is true in the context of a set of cities with a metropolitan area of 2+ million people.
You're not going to see service from ILM to ABE or HSV to DAY. There is just not the passenger traffic to make the trip worthwhile. And, you're not going to see Southwest at any of these cities any time soon.
Of course, some will argue that many cities have direct service to many cities that are not the aforementioned hubs. This is true. But this is true in the context of a set of cities with a metropolitan area of 2+ million people.
You're not going to see service from ILM to ABE or HSV to DAY. There is just not the passenger traffic to make the trip worthwhile. And, you're not going to see Southwest at any of these cities any time soon.
ITRADE
Veteran
Hmmm....Who was it that for about three years refused to agree to lift the RJ cap above 35 aircraft???PineyBob said:
BoeingBoy
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Bear & Bob,
I never said the hub/spoke had to go - if you'll look I said "old style" hub/spoke. Call it "rolling hub" or "depeaking", the successful hub/spoke model will look a lot like LUV in the places you mentioned. American, Delta, and Contenintal are already moving in that direction or implementing it. Why has Siegel wasted precious time? And before anyone cites "workrules" you'll have to give specific examples with contract reference. If you can't them maybe there aren't any.
You're right, there isn't enough traffic to fly ELM - ROA nonstop. But that doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of point to point opportunities out there. Don't you think cities like BOS, NYC, DCA could support more point to point which would also relieve pressures on the hubs.
Jim
I never said the hub/spoke had to go - if you'll look I said "old style" hub/spoke. Call it "rolling hub" or "depeaking", the successful hub/spoke model will look a lot like LUV in the places you mentioned. American, Delta, and Contenintal are already moving in that direction or implementing it. Why has Siegel wasted precious time? And before anyone cites "workrules" you'll have to give specific examples with contract reference. If you can't them maybe there aren't any.
You're right, there isn't enough traffic to fly ELM - ROA nonstop. But that doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of point to point opportunities out there. Don't you think cities like BOS, NYC, DCA could support more point to point which would also relieve pressures on the hubs.
Jim
Boeing Boy,BoeingBoy said:
Rolling the hubs would only really work in PHL, the only hub with a substantial enough O & D to support it, plus the added benefit of reducing delays through more efficient scheduling. It would not really work in PIT or CLT, nor is it needed as neither airport is delay ridden. The only hubs you rolled are in big O & D markets, such as ORD and DFW. Afterall, you don't see Delta rolling SLC. As for it looking more like Southwest, look at the number of cities WN flies to, and how many of them are small or mid sixed communities. Seigel is not an angel, and is not in line for CEO of the year, but his message about why we do not want to be come a Southwest clone a couple of weeks ago was "spot on".
