US Airways Makes Case for Merger With American

[fodase]

Pay is taken into consideration as a factor, it was mentioned in the Nicolau award as well ( the east got most of the benefit from any new contract)

 

[700UW]

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[FWAAA]

Of course, integration by pay rates would produce a combined AA-US list that would essentially staple every US captain under the most junior AA captain, since AA MD-80 captain rates are a dollar more per hour than US A330 pay rates. The same is true for first officers; the most senior US first officer would be stapled beneath the most junior AA first officer. Since the HP narrowbody captain rates are substantially higher than the US East captain rates, that approach would place many US West captains above many US East captains - not unlike the Nic result.

I have my doubts that an arbitrator would do such a thing. But I don't doubt that an arbitrator would first combine the US pilots (and not by DOH) but by duplicating the methodology of the Nic list. Then the arbitrator would combine the now-combined US list with the AA list in another Nic-like equitable combination.

 

[fodase]

But I don't doubt that an arbitrator would first combine the US pilots (and not by DOH) but by duplicating the methodology of the Nic list. Then the arbitrator would combine the now-combined US list with the AA list in another Nic-like equitable combination.

Why would an arbitrator not use the Nic. list to begin with?

 

[Move2CLT]

Of course, integration by pay rates would produce a combined AA-US list that would essentially staple every US captain under the most junior AA captain, since AA MD-80 captain rates are a dollar more per hour than US A330 pay rates. The same is true for first officers; the most senior US first officer would be stapled beneath the most junior AA first officer. Since the HP narrowbody captain rates are substantially higher than the US East captain rates, that approach would place many US West captains above many US East captains - not unlike the Nic result.

I have my doubts that an arbitrator would do such a thing. But I don't doubt that an arbitrator would first combine the US pilots (and not by DOH) but by duplicating the methodology of the Nic list. Then the arbitrator would combine the now-combined US list with the AA list in another Nic-like equitable combination.

The US Pilot's are already combined.

 

[FWAAA]

Why would an arbitrator not use the Nic. list to begin with?

I'm pretty sure that an arbitrator would use the Nic list. I'm just addressing the nonsense that the USAPA would provide a different list or would provide the artbitrator with two lists: the Pre-merger US list and the Pre-merger HP list.

No matter how you slice it, the result would be the same, IMO.

The US Pilot's are already combined.

I agree. An arbitrator already produced a combined US list. Of course, those in the East were mislead into thinking they could ignore that result if they voted to form a new union after they agreed to binding arbitration. So far, that fantasy has cost the pilots untold hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation that they will likely never recover. Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face can be a very expensive exercise.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Pay attention 700. If a seniority integration went to arbitration and the arbitrator decided that pay was a fair integration method he/she could certainly produce a combined list ordered by pay. It's unlikely that an arbitrator would decide to do it by pay, but there's not a thing preventing it.

Jim

OK, If I read this correctly, Both parties to a Seniority Integration present their arguments to said Arbitrator or arbitration panel?

Then said Arbitrator/Panel creates an integration scheme/list using various criteria of His/Their choosing?

So in theory the arbitrator could use say Hair Color if they so choose? Redheads, Brunette, Bald, Grey, Blonde?

 

[Move2CLT]

I'm pretty sure that an arbitrator would use the Nic list. I'm just addressing the nonsense that the USAPA would provide a different list or would provide the artbitrator with two lists: the Pre-merger US list and the Pre-merger HP list.

No matter how you slice it, the result would be the same, IMO.


I agree. An arbitrator already produced a combined US list. Of course, those in the East were mislead into thinking they could ignore that result if they voted to form a new union after they agreed to binding arbitration. So far, that fantasy has cost the pilots untold hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation that they will likely never recover. Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face can be a very expensive exercise.

Once again, outstanding post!

 

[CallawayGolf]

OK, If I read this correctly, Both parties to a Seniority Integration present their arguments to said Arbitrator or arbitration panel?

Then said Arbitrator/Panel creates an integration scheme/list using various criteria of His/Their choosing?

So in theory the arbitrator could use say Hair Color if they so choose? Redheads, Brunette, Bald, Grey, Blonde?

The panel could not have produced something like that in the US/HP SLI because there was a Transition Agreement that called for ALPA merger policy to be adhered to as well as a specific set of additional criteria agreed required for acceptance by the company or the arbitration would have been deemed invalid or unacceptable. George Nicolau followed ALPA merger policy and produced a list that complied with the Transition Agreement requirements for an integrated list. That's why it was accepted back in 2007 by Management.

No telling what criteria would be given to an arbitrator in a M-B scenario with US/AA but you can bet ordering by hair color, shoe size, gender, age or marital status won't be accepted. I think you can expect a very similar TA for any future transaction and perhaps a more stringent retirement for unconditional acceptance once the arbitration phase is complete.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So in theory the arbitrator could use say Hair Color if they so choose? Redheads, Brunette, Bald, Grey, Blonde?

To expand on Move's answer...

If there were no restraints placed on the arbitrator by the company or union policy, in theory he/she could use any of those criteria or anything else you could dream up. As Move said, management placed some restrictions on the end result of the US/HP seniority integration in the transition agreement, then ALPA has a list of guidelines plus a prohibition against changing the order of either pre-merger list. I have no idea what APA's merger policy is or what restrictions the company would put on an AA/US pilot integration, but whatever restrictions there were would have to be taken into account by the arbitrator. Other than that, M-B just calls for the arbitrator to produce a "fair" seniority integration with the definition of "fair" left up to the arbitrator.

Jim

 

[767one]

The US Pilot's are already combined.

Not operationaly.

 

[SparrowHawk]

To expand on Move's answer...

If there were no restraints placed on the arbitrator by the company or union policy, in theory he/she could use any of those criteria or anything else you could dream up. As Move said, management placed some restrictions on the end result of the US/HP seniority integration in the transition agreement, then ALPA has a list of guidelines plus a prohibition against changing the order of either pre-merger list. I have no idea what APA's merger policy is or what restrictions the company would put on an AA/US pilot integration, but whatever restrictions there were would have to be taken into account by the arbitrator. Other than that, M-B just calls for the arbitrator to produce a "fair" seniority integration with the definition of "fair" left up to the arbitrator.

Jim

OK, so once the there are some defined parameters given to the Arbitrator, He/She essentially becomes King Solomon?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Well, there could be some parameters. I suspect that management would want something like is in the transition agreement to minimize training cost. As discussed earlier, APA only has to petition the NMB for single carrier status and they would be the only union involved so their policy might have some parameters. But you're essentially right.

Jim

 

[signals]

Pilots Only

 

[ChockJockey]

I'm interested in hearing speculation/strategy of what would happen in the West were AA and US to ever exchange vows and leap into the abyss-er, I mean merge. It helps to have some info, so here is a hub comparison between AA in LAX and US in PHX

AA
Share of Market: 18.17%
Enplaned Pax: 8,131,000
Gates: 14

US
Share of Market: 46.19%
Enplaned Pax: 14,240,000
Gates: 55

Source: The Department of Transportation's Research and Innovative Technology Administration, of course!

Thanks to the voodoo magic of Photoshop I was able to overly the route maps. It was easy because they use the same route map software:

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Can you spot the errant, nonexistent route in the above map?

Destinations tables (as accurate as Wikipedia):