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US Airways Makes Case for Merger With American
- Thread starter USA320Pilot
- Start date
Shocking! Can one suppose then, that "some" slight resistance towards any happy fantasy of slotting by current position, or ahem, "career expectations" exists within the American tribe?
Exercise caution lest you crush any cherished west dreams as to just how joyously your group would/will embrace them........or anyone, for that matter.
Perhaps worth additional consideration is the fact that, according to west notions of "fair and equitable", well....you DO of course understand that all of American's furloughed count for absolutely NOTHING whatsoever?....and that any that "bring a job" to the circus must supplant them on a combined list?
I neglected to mention those that, in the event of an eventual transaction, will feel themselves "entitled" to jump on top of you and yours because they "saved" you all
AA has ~600 pilots who haven't accepted recall. Some of those who deferred are senior enough to be 767 captains. We did a "Stand in stead" furlough program where , if you were willing, you could take the furlough vs. the bottom guy. Some of our furloughed are at LCC. Given current firm orders and scheduled deliveries, those guys will be back. At least those who wish to come back will be back. I can't imagine a guy who is a SW captain now wanting to return..... Based on age 60, and firm orders it would be very safe to say they're bringing a job.
As for your "slotting position", how do you define the seats? We operate a good number of 4 man crew ops. There will be more when the rest of the firm ordered 777's and 787's start showing up. BTW, the 787's and all the 777's and 787's weight more and pay more than the couple of A330-3's you guys have... And, there will be 105 in that combined fleet based on firm orders (not including options, they're starting in a couple of months BTW).
So, do we start slotting the LCC guys (assuming for the sake of internet play in the event of a combination) around 1,000+ numbers down? ( I would say yes, and adjust further if AA employs a DAL style 2CA/4 man crew compliment). Side note: there are almost 800 F/O's on our 47-777 fleet right now.
I suppose you'd want to start right at the top with the belief that the A330 equals the 777. Oh yea, we've got close to 1200 CA's in the 767/757 fleet, and the majority of our 767's are -300's, AND pay a bunch more in all seats.. I suppose you'd want to start right at the top of that one too!
wings396
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,672
- 1,122
Based on some past mergers, I thought that some a/c were protected for a given group of pilots for a term of a few years before being made available for open bid. I seem to recall the former PI 767's were done this way after the merger with US. Any that were delivered after the merger were open for anyone to bid.
No Jim, I am not mixing the two up. I completely understand the responsibilities of the NMB, and their ability to allow for a representationl election. What you fail to realize, or maybe you know but just don't want to acknowledge, is it absolutely doesn't matter if the APA wins the election. USAPA is the bargaining agent for US, and therefore M-B will be used for the integration of the seniority lists. Unless, the two parties agree to an integrated list prior to arbitration. If this is not the case, why have the law at all? The larger group would just remove the smaller group for every merger. Once again, I think you are wrong, if you can find the portion of the statute which would allow for M-B not be used please post it, but I don't think you'll find it.
Spike
Isn't that what the east scabs did? And btw they vehemently defend their right to impose their seniority on the smaller west group. A bunch of vile human beings you eastholes are.
Phoenix
Veteran
- Apr 16, 2003
- 8,584
- 7,430
Cactus pilots are about to save your lucky butt. You better show propper gratitude commensurate to their legacy of unbounded success, growth, and profitability.AA has ~600 pilots who haven't accepted recall. Some of those who deferred are senior enough to be 767 captains. We did a "Stand in stead" furlough program where , if you were willing, you could take the furlough vs. the bottom guy. Some of our furloughed are at LCC. Given current firm orders and scheduled deliveries, those guys will be back. At least those who wish to come back will be back. I can't imagine a guy who is a SW captain now wanting to return..... Based on age 60, and firm orders it would be very safe to say they're bringing a job.
As for your "slotting position", how do you define the seats? We operate a good number of 4 man crew ops. There will be more when the rest of the firm ordered 777's and 787's start showing up. BTW, the 787's and all the 777's and 787's weight more and pay more than the couple of A330-3's you guys have... And, there will be 105 in that combined fleet based on firm orders (not including options, they're starting in a couple of months BTW).
So, do we start slotting the LCC guys (assuming for the sake of internet play in the event of a combination) around 1,000+ numbers down? ( I would say yes, and adjust further if AA employs a DAL style 2CA/4 man crew compliment). Side note: there are almost 800 F/O's on our 47-777 fleet right now.
I suppose you'd want to start right at the top with the belief that the A330 equals the 777. Oh yea, we've got close to 1200 CA's in the 767/757 fleet, and the majority of our 767's are -300's, AND pay a bunch more in all seats.. I suppose you'd want to start right at the top of that one too!
Beancounter
Veteran
- Jun 28, 2009
- 1,378
- 1,817
AA has ~600 pilots who haven't accepted recall. Some of those who deferred are senior enough to be 767 captains. We did a "Stand in stead" furlough program where , if you were willing, you could take the furlough vs. the bottom guy. Some of our furloughed are at LCC. Given current firm orders and scheduled deliveries, those guys will be back. At least those who wish to come back will be back. I can't imagine a guy who is a SW captain now wanting to return..... Based on age 60, and firm orders it would be very safe to say they're bringing a job.
As for your "slotting position", how do you define the seats? We operate a good number of 4 man crew ops. There will be more when the rest of the firm ordered 777's and 787's start showing up. BTW, the 787's and all the 777's and 787's weight more and pay more than the couple of A330-3's you guys have... And, there will be 105 in that combined fleet based on firm orders (not including options, they're starting in a couple of months BTW).
So, do we start slotting the LCC guys (assuming for the sake of internet play in the event of a combination) around 1,000+ numbers down? ( I would say yes, and adjust further if AA employs a DAL style 2CA/4 man crew compliment). Side note: there are almost 800 F/O's on our 47-777 fleet right now.
I suppose you'd want to start right at the top with the belief that the A330 equals the 777. Oh yea, we've got close to 1200 CA's in the 767/757 fleet, and the majority of our 767's are -300's, AND pay a bunch more in all seats.. I suppose you'd want to start right at the top of that one too!
With the AWA/US merger the arbitrator started about 500 down and then started slotting. American has a lot more wide-bodies and isn't in as bad a financial position as US Airways was, so I would say slotting would start at least a thousand down, if not further.
I think Parker cares what the American pilot's position is on the merger, he wants their support. As far as us, I don't think he cares, not anymore. He has no respect for our union (can't blame him) and he has already parked it and put an injunction around it's neck (basically leashed and neutered).
Bean
Dear Pilots:
I know life has been hell for you the last decade. I know it has been so especially for the pilots of US East as I have worked with those men and women on the front lines since I left America West in the early 90s. I don't really understand all of this Nicolau or LOA93 stuff, and while feeling the pain of our east pilots, I do not purport to understand it all. But what I do understand is that, on this forum, when a good thread gets going it all seems to all come back to the cockpit pissin' contest, or CPC. I know that there is a cockpit pissin contest thread on here that is several thousand pages long. But it doesn't seem to matter. Like a really deadly and determined stage four cancer the CPC seems to metastisize on to other threads that are initially quite interesting to read, but which eventually degenerates into another CPC that interests no one but the pissed off pilots on both sides, while inevitably rendering the interesting, new, non-pilot centered threads DOA. I suspect most of you guys realize that many of us non-pilot folks don't even read your threads because it has become--and I speak for myself--so NOT interesting. So you seem to take your vitriol to other interesting threads seemingly as a cry for attention.
I get you, but can you please attempt to restrain yourselves and keep this food fight to the threads that are reserved for your issues. There actually are airline employees, and airline employees who read these boards who are not interested in being consumed by this internecine war. We know that both sides are fighting, and we know what you're fighting for. Speaking for myself, could you please restrain yourselves from jamming your issues down our collective throats in the interest of being heard because believe me all work groups have issues that they also want to have heard. Please learn how to play in the sand box! Keep it in the pilots' thread!
Sincerely yours,
Ebwgs
I know life has been hell for you the last decade. I know it has been so especially for the pilots of US East as I have worked with those men and women on the front lines since I left America West in the early 90s. I don't really understand all of this Nicolau or LOA93 stuff, and while feeling the pain of our east pilots, I do not purport to understand it all. But what I do understand is that, on this forum, when a good thread gets going it all seems to all come back to the cockpit pissin' contest, or CPC. I know that there is a cockpit pissin contest thread on here that is several thousand pages long. But it doesn't seem to matter. Like a really deadly and determined stage four cancer the CPC seems to metastisize on to other threads that are initially quite interesting to read, but which eventually degenerates into another CPC that interests no one but the pissed off pilots on both sides, while inevitably rendering the interesting, new, non-pilot centered threads DOA. I suspect most of you guys realize that many of us non-pilot folks don't even read your threads because it has become--and I speak for myself--so NOT interesting. So you seem to take your vitriol to other interesting threads seemingly as a cry for attention.
I get you, but can you please attempt to restrain yourselves and keep this food fight to the threads that are reserved for your issues. There actually are airline employees, and airline employees who read these boards who are not interested in being consumed by this internecine war. We know that both sides are fighting, and we know what you're fighting for. Speaking for myself, could you please restrain yourselves from jamming your issues down our collective throats in the interest of being heard because believe me all work groups have issues that they also want to have heard. Please learn how to play in the sand box! Keep it in the pilots' thread!
Sincerely yours,
Ebwgs
crazystnic
Veteran
- Sep 28, 2010
- 781
- 727
AA has ~600 pilots who haven't accepted recall. Some of those who deferred are senior enough to be 767 captains. We did a "Stand in stead" furlough program where , if you were willing, you could take the furlough vs. the bottom guy. Some of our furloughed are at LCC. Given current firm orders and scheduled deliveries, those guys will be back. At least those who wish to come back will be back. I can't imagine a guy who is a SW captain now wanting to return..... Based on age 60, and firm orders it would be very safe to say they're bringing a job.
As for your "slotting position", how do you define the seats? We operate a good number of 4 man crew ops. There will be more when the rest of the firm ordered 777's and 787's start showing up. BTW, the 787's and all the 777's and 787's weight more and pay more than the couple of A330-3's you guys have... And, there will be 105 in that combined fleet based on firm orders (not including options, they're starting in a couple of months BTW).
So, do we start slotting the LCC guys (assuming for the sake of internet play in the event of a combination) around 1,000+ numbers down? ( I would say yes, and adjust further if AA employs a DAL style 2CA/4 man crew compliment). Side note: there are almost 800 F/O's on our 47-777 fleet right now.
I suppose you'd want to start right at the top with the belief that the A330 equals the 777. Oh yea, we've got close to 1200 CA's in the 767/757 fleet, and the majority of our 767's are -300's, AND pay a bunch more in all seats.. I suppose you'd want to start right at the top of that one too!
At least those who wish to come back will be back. I can't imagine a guy who is a SW captain now wanting to return..... Based on age 60, and firm orders it would be very safe to say they're bringing a job.
you stated above.. wow, imagine that.. Maybe the west could see the same was true for the east... it was only a matter of time as to when the EAST furloughees where coming back.. and bringing a job due to attirtion.
Beancounter
Veteran
- Jun 28, 2009
- 1,378
- 1,817
You've got to be joking. While American's stand alone plan is a joke there is a huge difference between US Airways pre-merger and American in it's current condition. US Airways didn't have a snowballs chance in h@ll of avoiding liquidation if the America West merger had fallen through. Do some research, and I'm not talking about some Pennsylvania small town rag article, those furloughs were never coming back.
Bean
Unfortunately for you East/West doesn't fall under M-B, while US AA does. Thank ALPA for that.
Spike
AA has ~600 pilots who haven't accepted recall. Some of those who deferred are senior enough to be 767 captains. We did a "Stand in stead" furlough program where , if you were willing, you could take the furlough vs. the bottom guy. Some of our furloughed are at LCC. Given current firm orders and scheduled deliveries, those guys will be back. At least those who wish to come back will be back. I can't imagine a guy who is a SW captain now wanting to return..... Based on age 60, and firm orders it would be very safe to say they're bringing a job.
As for your "slotting position", how do you define the seats? We operate a good number of 4 man crew ops. There will be more when the rest of the firm ordered 777's and 787's start showing up. BTW, the 787's and all the 777's and 787's weight more and pay more than the couple of A330-3's you guys have... And, there will be 105 in that combined fleet based on firm orders (not including options, they're starting in a couple of months BTW).
So, do we start slotting the LCC guys (assuming for the sake of internet play in the event of a combination) around 1,000+ numbers down? ( I would say yes, and adjust further if AA employs a DAL style 2CA/4 man crew compliment). Side note: there are almost 800 F/O's on our 47-777 fleet right now.
I suppose you'd want to start right at the top with the belief that the A330 equals the 777. Oh yea, we've got close to 1200 CA's in the 767/757 fleet, and the majority of our 767's are -300's, AND pay a bunch more in all seats.. I suppose you'd want to start right at the top of that one too!
Quite honestly, after your group's utterly despicable treatment of the TWA people...well, there seems precious little purpose served in even discussing the issue with you, but thanks for making my point = "Exercise caution lest you crush any cherished west dreams as to just how joyously your group would/will embrace them........or anyone, for that matter."
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