Try convincing AAviator that..
US Airways CEO: We don’t have to merge, but maybe it makes senseRead more here: http://www.charlotte
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nycbusdriver
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My point was more about timing than anything else. The Kirby proposal was miserly, arrogant, insulting, but ESPECIALLY nearsighted. Both east and west derided the Kirby when it was presented, and the company never would back off. All of this occurred BEFORE Nicolau presented his abomination.
Had the company been more realistic in the compensation from the start, there likely would have been a TA ratified while still awaiting Nicolau. Then, Nicolau would have been a done deal on arrival since the real holdup now is getting the east to ever ratify with Nicolau in the mix.
Here is how the timeline COULD have been if Tempe hadn't been such idiots at the bargaining table:
-- May, 2005: Merger is announced. Transition agreement negotiated shortly thereafter requiring a separately ratified contract, a seniority list arrived at through ALPA policy, and a single operating certificate. (This, of course, actually happened.)
-- If, then, the company had been realistic in negotiations, there might have been a tentative agreement out for vote by 2006. With a decent proposal, it likely would have passed both sides long before spring of 2007.
-- May, 2007: Nicolau spits out his venom. The east pilots would scream bloody murder. (This portion, of course, actually happened, too.) However, in the imaginary timeline now, there is little recourse for east pilots to establish a different path. There would be objections made to ALPA and maybe even "Blue Ribbon Committees" to study the issue. However, the shoe really drops before much can be done with Nicolau, because....
-- September, 2007: FAA approves a single certificate for the merged carriers. It's done. The new contract and the Nicolau are now in place with no likelihood of ever changing a now-effective seniority list. It's over.
-- October, 2007: East pilots leave in record numbers for greener pastures, or take on long-term medical leave if they are tired of flying airplanes anyway.
So, what I'm saying is that if the Kirby proposal wasn't so nearsighted, miserly, arrogant, and insulting, then that leg of the TA milk-stool (contract, seniority list, operating certificate) would have been in place BEFORE Nicolau "awarded" his decision.
Move2CLT
Veteran
- Banned
- #138
We were less than two weeks from closing out the contract. The pace of talks had increased to an ending of negotiations pace and the, abruptly, stopped.
TWO WEEKS AWAY!
You're just giving more excuses for your inane actions. It was you guys and the Nic that has gotten us here - not the Kirby proposal or timing.
nycbusdriver
Veteran
The west will support the company if its detrimental to USAPA. Remember that job action that went unsupported by the west last summer?
I wouldn't mind seeing your pilot group left behind, maybe spun off to Republic. Nothing says the west can't pick up that market. We're already flying 24% of your flights.
Wow! All these screeching responses right in a row over one measly post about Tempe's missed opportunity.
I can picture you now, a 6 year old girl in her pink tutu throwing a hissy fit over the necessity of confronting reality.
Oh, and that "operational" thing you mentioned last summer. I know the west didn't join in because you, like those east pilots in bases other than CLT, didn't even know anything was going on until the company filed suit. Besides, I think there's something in the water in CLT that bears some research. Hope you enjoy it when you move there as a reserve A320 first officer....sometime in 2018.
JFK Fleet is a rarity on the AA side.. If it were all about mass, STL would be growing, we'd be ramping SJC back up, and pulling 80's out of the desert, or buying Frontier...
etops1, what convincing needs done? Kirby has said labor support is paramount. Why would he say that? The DAL drive by attempt deal was killed by labor. Labor is on the UCC in the AA BK.
You have yet to demonstrate an understanding of the ugly economic picture a LCC/AA combination would create. You tried in post#152 of this thread, http://airlineforums.com/topic/52548-us-airways-confirms-it-has-hired-ma-advisors-for-possible-amr-takeover/page__hl__%2Boneworld+%2Bnews+%2Baaviator ,but came up short. Reaaaallly looking forward to some substance from you rather than your smug, "oh just you wait and see" B.S.
From several fronts... Lack luster revenues, high operating costs, incompatible fleets, heavy dependence on RJ's, enormous total debt. You act as though if it were all to be rolled into a ball, revenues/ticket prices would magically increase, our pay checks would grow, birds would be chirping, and rainbows would greet us every morning when we wake up. -And it still won't address JFK/LAX and the Pacific.
In every merger case LCC/USAirways has made, the target of their advances has been much better off with WITHOUT LCC. Agreed?
Given everything you and wings are turning a blind eye to, how can you continue to hold so firmly you belief? What will it take to get you two to address the economics?
LCC has a smallish fleet of mismatched A330's. About a dozen 767-200's that are ancient. 757's that are from the Eastern Airlines era, A320/319's some of which are 20+ years old, 737's that are older yet, and a 300+ a/c regional operation that sucks fuel like a '72 Caddy Sedan Deville.
Labor is/are part of the UCC.
Change the name DAL to AA here, and you'll have a peek at the future.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-158695397.html
DP's next move will create much more debt, and uncertainty than the DAL Hostile offer ever had.
Your turn....
I don't know about the "done deal" part, but the rest of your post is spot on. And whatever the final conclusion is to this corporate drama there is nothing that any message board ranter can do to change it.
signals
Veteran
That may be true, but in this glo-bull economy, pilots are a dime a dozen as wages fade.
h34r:
wings396
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
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Move2CLT
Veteran
- Banned
- #145
Didn't know what was going on?!? Are you joking. EVERYONE knew not only WHEN it was going on, but also knew before hand when it was going to start.
Your pathetic union and the way your pilots handled the phone tree, I'm surprised Parker didn't get a call from one of you guys telling him to start a slowdown.
It was laughable. The joke of the industry.
And thats without even getting into the lanyard thing.
You guys were doing a 1990's style work action in 2011. Congrats.
How's that injunction going? I see the comapny's numbers are up too. Way to show them who is boss.
Really?
You really believe that? How about the fact that any other option than an LCC merger was a better option for DAL? The press never even spent as much as a drop of ink spouting what you claim to be fact ...
Its obvious you want it to happen, and has been since UAL brushed you aside to merge with CAL. LCC is in a relatively weak postion in the industry.. Not your fault, but the economics and dynamics of the sector leaves LCC in an unenviable network position, with few options to work your way out of the network you're operating. DP has found a way to mint nickels on low wages and a split airline. Any change to that combination and the wheels come off. He needs and must have outside help to fix the long term problems LCC has.
As far as our station personnel... Nothing changes the fact that we are in BK and need modifications to the way we do business. If you think adding LCC to the mix will enhance an agents ability to stay in any specific station, you're delusional. What would be more likely is a bunch of LCC staff will bump into an AA station when places like PHX downsize, and PHL experiences a draw down. LGA? ha ha.. IF AA succeeds in reorganization, which there is no reason to think it won't, I can see a couple of years down the road where anyone who wants to come back, WILL be back, we'll have new hires, and standing at the LCC asset auction with a couple hundred million, and a $10 billion line of credit.
Given how screwed up things are in your neck of the woods from F/A's, to NIC-crippled pilots, to a slit operation, to an overall marginal (very high cost) total network presence, It would be best for AA to pass on what Parker has to offer and wait for what comes available down the road.
Sure, we're in BK. We're under the knife in the hospital. We're there to get better... We'll do it best without "U".
ad-nauseam
BTW, thanks for agreeing that DAL had better options than LCC. Even if it was in a round about way.
wings396
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- Aug 20, 2002
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I can't argue that the NW route system was a great fit for DL with the pacific etc. Keep in mind that Parkers intent was to reduce capacity in order to have better control over ticket prices. Not any different than DL expressing some interest in US. Eliminate a competitor, and take seats out of the market, that's what consolidation is all about. Fleet types, and routes are secondary. Once merged, any airlines can redeploy their a/c wherever they feel the need.
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