US Airways ALPA MEC Resolution

[AWA320]

Still looking for that ladder for the east guys to use?

HAHahahahahahaah

That's all i'm gonna say about that!!!

 

[ussnark]

That leaves us with the coveted captain positions. Strong odds are you will see more movement east to west for captain positions than west to east, which puts us at a disadvantage and could potentially erode our seniority quickly in PHX & LAS. This is an area I am most uncomfortable with in the Nicolau award – no fences for PHX & LAS. If you don’t see the potential for a lot of east movement to west bases than you need to look again. We have no protections here, so why not agree to fences and captain ratios in the JNC process? This does not change the award, but it might give everyone a comfort level that moves us toward the golden goose.

I strongly disagree the Nic award sets a precedent in our profession. The arbitrator stated in the award “...that each case turns on its own facts”, which does not prevent other types of integration methods including DOH if that’s what the board finds equitable. If any of you east guys think you are protecting the interests of our profession, step back, put the crack pipe down, sober up, and start thinking about a more achievable goal.

Actually what you stated could easily be taken care of by DOH with conditions and restrictions.

BTW, it doesn't matter what Nicholau says as he is retired.

But, precedent does matter. It forms the basis for mergers going forward. If you don't believe it, ask any former Piedmont pilot wanting slotting but were given DOH, mainly because they did not and would not "slot" the Empire dudes.

Say, after ten years, US gets bought by some startup and someone decides that slotting is the way to go, because that is what you accepted with Nicholau. You are now in the right seat paired with a two year captain. Have a good day.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

History has proven your theory wrong. Both sides presented case history supporting their respective positions. Some mergers resulted in DOH integration and others slotting and a combination thereof.

You obviously don't understand the logic of the Nic award nor ALPA merger policy because of your misplaced sense of entitlement.

Actually what you stated could easily be taken care of by DOH with conditions and restrictions.

BTW, it doesn't matter what Nicholau says as he is retired.

But, precedent does matter. It forms the basis for mergers going forward. If you don't believe it, ask any former Piedmont pilot wanting slotting but were given DOH, mainly because they did not and would not "slot" the Empire dudes.

Say, after ten years, US gets bought by some startup and someone decides that slotting is the way to go, because that is what you accepted with Nicholau. You are now in the right seat paired with a two year captain. Have a good day.

 

[electricjet98]

Say, after ten years, US gets bought by some startup and someone decides that slotting is the way to go, because that is what you accepted with Nicholau. You are now in the right seat paired with a two year captain. Have a good day.

If by that time we are losing money hand-over-fist, have furloughed a large percentage of pilots forcing me to the right seat, currently in bankrutcy and looking at liquidation, I'd say that I am dang lucky to just have a job! And since that two year captain played a part in getting his company into a position to save my arse, I'd say "good for him"!

 

[ussnark]

History has proven your theory wrong. Both sides presented case history supporting their respective positions. Some mergers resulted in DOH integration and others slotting and a combination thereof.

You obviously don't understand the logic of the Nic award nor ALPA merger policy because of your misplaced sense of entitlement.

Actually, you are completely wrong.

There was no logic with Nicholau other than what he did worked last time (shuttle/USAir merger), no major objection.

Your ignorance is understandable. When Kegal (look it up) asked the Piedmont merger comm. to reassign Empire dudes based on slotting and they refused (they were basically stapled), he went with DOH with conditions and restrictions, the other side.

Believe what you want but history does not support your contentions. Perhaps were you to post valid examples otherwise, people might take your fantasies more seriously.

Entitlement? You have no idea. I am immune, but see a crisis in the near future for the pilots I enjoy flying with if they follow your fantasy.

Clicking your red shoe heels together does not guarantee you will get where you want to go.

If by that time we are losing money hand-over-fist, have furloughed a large percentage of pilots forcing me to the right seat, currently in bankrutcy and looking at liquidation, I'd say that I am dang lucky to just have a job! And since that two year captain played a part in getting his company into a position to save my arse, I'd say "good for him"!

That was not the reason for "relative seniority". Read the "award". and HP did not save anyone other than themselves. Read the papers. Try to align yourself with reality.

 

[Phoenix]

And your DOH?

Still no answer on that.

He thinks we are Fing crybabies and doesn't want to upset us more I suppose.

 

[Junebug172]

Try to align yourself with reality.

Hah! And east guy counseling others on reality.

Now that's funny!

Quite ironic too.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

There was no logic with Nicholau other than what he did worked last time (shuttle/USAir merger), no major objection.

Yes, there was logic. ridding the airline industry of a real impediment to rational consolidation: the USAirways DOH pilot seniority list.

Good idea. Bad execution.

 

[ussnark]

Yes, there was logic. ridding the airline industry of a real impediment to rational consolidation: the USAirways DOH pilot seniority list.

Good idea. Bad execution.

So, what, as a UAL pilot, would you propose?

 

[b737fo]

F/O you have has some of the most level headed posts on here so I would like your opinion as a west guy(really, not baiting you). Do you think separate ops with a joint contract are a good idea with Doug still lusting for a merger?

Actually I think that would be a terrible idea to operate as two separate entities as our relative strength against a larger pilot group during a future merger would be diminished. I have always believed in strength in numbers and to keep us divided means a future of using our limited resources watching our back with the company and now with our counterparts on each side of the Miss. river. With the level of accusations and disrespect that is seen on this board, it seems there would always be an element of distrust between East and West that would hamper our ability to work towards a successful future merger.

Even if there is no future merger on the horizon the logistics of separate ops under a single certificate opens a distinct possibility of whipsawing. I've seen it at a past airline firsthand. I know that some will say that we can protect against such a scenario in the form of future contract language but I have yet to work under a contract that has been negotiated by pilot volunteers that has delivered on all the "protections" promised. BTW the negotiating committee volunteers have my support and respect for the sacrifices they make to deliver a product that we can get behind.

An ideal situation would be to let the JNC process continue and finally become one cohesive unit. I am not sure that is possible at this time. In fact I am pretty sure that others will accuse me of wanting my "windfall" for even suggesting such a thing. So in that case maybe a single contract with separate operations would at least allow us to seize the opportunity to make gains in compensation and quality of life while this airline (the new US Airways) is experiencing the financial success that neither predecessor has seen in a while before it is too late and the next down cycle begins.

 

[Pi brat]

That's because he has no say and I do!!!! Run with that...
That is rich coming from the likes of you!!! All you want to do is put us at the bottom of the list below even your unemployed!!!! Yeah I got mine when you weren't allowed to hose us in arbitration, thanks George you did a fine and absolutly FAIR job...

He has no say and you do? How is that? Are you the west MEC's one man band, or Doug and Scott's boy toy?

Looks like we will all have a say, one man, one vote.

Actually I think that would be a terrible idea to operate as two separate entities as our relative strength against a larger pilot group during a future merger would be diminished. I have always believed in strength in numbers and to keep us divided means a future of using our limited resources watching our back with the company and now with our counterparts on each side of the Miss. river. With the level of accusations and disrespect that is seen on this board, it seems there would always be an element of distrust between East and West that would hamper our ability to work towards a successful future merger.

Even if there is no future merger on the horizon the logistics of separate ops under a single certificate opens a distinct possibility of whipsawing. I've seen it at a past airline firsthand. I know that some will say that we can protect against such a scenario in the form of future contract language but I have yet to work under a contract that has been negotiated by pilot volunteers that has delivered on all the "protections" promised. BTW the negotiating committee volunteers have my support and respect for the sacrifices they make to deliver a product that we can get behind.

An ideal situation would be to let the JNC process continue and finally become one cohesive unit. I am not sure that is possible at this time. In fact I am pretty sure that others will accuse me of wanting my "windfall" for even suggesting such a thing. So in that case maybe a single contract with separate operations would at least allow us to seize the opportunity to make gains in compensation and quality of life while this airline (the new US Airways) is experiencing the financial success that neither predecessor has seen in a while before it is too late and the next down cycle begins.

Thanks. I don't see anyway around the whipsawing either.

 

[ussnark]

Thanks. I don't see anyway around the whipsawing either.

Perhaps you are confusing the inability to combine lists with a potential inability to cooperate, assuming that one inability implies the other. It would be an easy mistake to make, early on.

I definitely see a potential for both units operating as one when it comes to negotiations and "whipsawing" can work both ways.

 

[electricjet98]

That was not the reason for "relative seniority". Read the "award". and HP did not save anyone other than themselves. Read the papers. Try to align yourself with reality.

Analyize this:

Yet, it cannot be disputed that there were differences in the financial condition of both carriers and that US Airways was the weaker. This necessarily means that career expectations differed and that US Airways pilots had more to gain from the merger than their new colleagues.â€￾

Source: Nicolau Seniority Integration Award

 

[EyeInTheSky]

That's because he has no say and I do!!!! Run with that...
That is rich coming from the likes of you!!! All you want to do is put us at the bottom of the list below even your unemployed!!!! Yeah I got mine when you weren't allowed to hose us in arbitration, thanks George you did a fine and absolutly FAIR job...

Like I said, snot-nosed Gen X'er. Wanna shine my shoes?

Later,
Eye

 

[EastUS]

career expectations

"career expectations"..Thanks...that phrase is always a source of hilarity to me