Union vs Non Union My Response

[brokenwrench]

Tech2101,

Congratulations on returning to college. Certainly a laudable choice. Although it seems much of your self esteem is tied quite tightly to the size of your paycheck. Further you seem to attempt to continue with attempts at character assassination which have only been proven false over these past few years, which I think reveals an enormous amount of festering animosity and anger. All of which puts a bit of a pale on your claim to such prosperity and/or happiness.

Like the paycheck you slithered across a picket line to get! Was your intent to make more than you did as a "proffessional contractor."

What a joke for you to try and make that point!

And what is this supposed to mean?

However I think Delta employees have the opportunity to make an incredible start to return the aviation industry to the profession we all love and one everyone can be proud of and a growing industry.

Is it because the Delta Techs are non-union? You feel some sort of bond with them?
I have news for you, when the NW AMT's walked nobody at my Delta station would touch a NW A/C.
Can you say the same? The Delta AMT's may be non-union but it is for reasons apart from yours!

As has been pointed out on this board before you would not be working for Delta, or any other major, if you had not slithered in the back door.

 

[Vimes]

You want to talk about AMT's? AMFA had the right idea on this. Unions like the iam have actually hindered the mechanic by helping keep and not fighting to change the Dep of Labor classification of the aircraft mechanic from semi-skilled to skilled. Also the FAA is to blame too. In Europe the A@P is not even recognized they have a far more rigorious standard of licencing and training and are type rated to a limit of 2 a/c max. Can you imagine if they had the regulation here of 2 a/c max per mechanic, the lobbying group ATA and the airlines would have a fit. AMFA had the right idea unfortunately mechanics are thier own worst enemy. We do nothing to try to help help polish our image. Oh well I am sure Vimes you will figure it all out.

lineguy,

I agree with you EXCEPT for the part that I will figure it all out. I am simply fortunate that I have a friend who is a media strategist/consultant who has been privy to this entire situation for years simply due to our friendship. Seeing things from this persons point of view has really been an eye opener for me. I have been frustrated just like almost every other mechanic over the classification and the deterioration of the industry as a whole. For years I have wondered why things were not really being accomplished on many levels for the aviation industry and/or the aviation professionals. I am no more capable of seeing both sides of the issue than any other mechanic out there, I just happen to have this friend and this friend just happens to be a professional at shaping opinions; therefore I have learned a lot.

 

[Dignity]

FWIW,

during "experience" training well into late last year, or as I like to call it..

.. group psychotherapy...

because that is how it appeared, or at least became evident to me.. very early on, JMO.

the former labor relations turned Inflight VP, after the former Inflight VP was shown the door to explore other avenues..after the conclusion of her role in the Flight Attendant replacement fiasco or for whatever reasons...to say 'buh bye'..

she publicly apologized to the entire group that day for her role in creating unnecessary mistrust and havoc at our airline.

it was an apology.

(in my opinion was necessary to make.. to all of us)

and I was very surprised to hear it too..

I sort of respected her for that, she did acknowledge that indeed..

they, the company.. did something very wrong...

some may not have been aware of this public apology (maybe they are?) because the only ones present were a mix of Flight Attendants, Res, Agents and CSA, some Managers, some DL people who were just absolutely wonderful..a Motivational speaker and of course her.




the food was also really good too....

 

[Vimes]

Funny you mention PTO...Vimes is more the Czar Greene type. You know the type, pompous. :down:

Groundcontrol,

I did not know PTO, it is my understanding he is no longer here, I do know Czar. Although I suggest you not confuse honesty with pomposity.

 

[Vimes]

Yep that about sum it up nicely... Except lets take the last two choices you mention and apply them to the AMFA strike. "You could 1 walk out and jeoperdize your families future or continue to work for what you consider to be fair wages and benefits". Well lets suppose that your seniority fell in the 53 percent of mechanics to be eliminated and the more senior guys who stayed were going to take a 23 percent hit on the pay...Ok lets suppose you think this is a fair offer but the membership voted to take it to the street even though if it was voted in you would be out of a job are you telling me you would continue to work and not support the vote and go on strike? Seems pretty damn selfish doesn't it? After all I could have done that as I was in the 53 percent to be out of a job. Wouldn't you think that was pretty selfish of me to cross my picket line because I am my own man right even though I was technically out of a job and there were guys senior to me who are out on the picket line who would NOT have been out of a job but are out there fighting to help me keep me and the other 53 percent from going to the curb? Yet there were guys who did just that. I don't care what you think about unions that is just plain wrong and the people who do it are the lowest of the low. I don't want to hear the excuses either. I have a mortage, I have a family too. I worked two jobs to pay the bills because we could not collect unemployment. I did what I had to do until I was fortunate enough to be hired by a great company. I feel I was blessed because I did the right thing and did not take the easy route. I can hold my head high because not only was I honorable but I help many of my fellow honorable co-workers get hired here as well. But again every man makes his own choices in life. Some have grown to regret it BIG TIME.

lineguy,

I know some of the real oldtimers that crossed a couple going back to the 60's and early 70's. Their regret seems to be that AMFA ever happened they will vocally tell you they do not regret coming back.

 

[Vimes]

Sad thing is people read your drivel and believe it.
This 'discussion' has been put to MeriKa workers 'numerous' times.
Unfortunately, most agree with you even though the they imperil their own country and families.
It is people like ‘you’ that subjugate America through the ‘fractional-truisms’ to make it appear factual.

Here is a little ‘factual truism’ that everyone here should pay attention to:

Fact:
Globalization of labor is here!
Affect:
Lower wages and benefits for American workers, some small gains for immigrant workers trying to equalize, huge profits for CEO’s and executives (but of course you being a stalwart in the industry that CEO and executive compensation has skyrocketed more than ten fold that of the labor force? Yes of course you do…)

Your part has only xxxxxx exasperated the inevitable.

B) xUT

PS:
You Suck!

UAL,

No actual truism. I do however agree Globalization of labor has been here it just starting to hit more openly. What I am trying to say in part is IT IS OUR CHOICE IF IT STAYS HERE.

Of course CEO's compensation has skyrocketed, that is called taking advantage of the situation. WE HAVE ALLOWED IT. People have joined divisive little cliques rather than looking at things a different way or even being willing to look at things a different way.

Divided=Conquered

 

[Vimes]

No what you said was, once again, Oh and how is that union thing working out for thousands of auto workers? Looks like they blackmailed the entire industry into bankruptcy to me. How else was I supposed to interpret this? You made no mention of the fact that the UAW does not design the cars nor do they decide which cars to bring to market. And yes I know UAW medical benefits are not ended. However GM is no longer covering 100% of the costs.

777,

Yes they blackmailed the industry, i.e. Job Bank, 100% medical/dental/vision while employed and retired, free cars, AND virtually free cars, months of paid time off and so much more, benefits that are so far out of the mainstream of America it almost too much to comprehend. Yes their blackmail was a huge part of pushing them into bankruptcy not completely but certainly a major factor. How many corners did the company cut in order to keep the cost of the vehicles down in order to absorb the UAW blackmail into the cost of the vehicles produced?

 

[Vimes]

When all the company's are owned and operated by Obama and his posse , who you gonna blame then !

Who's been the biggest pusher of a global economy.............that's right ........Big Brother !

And when Big Brother taxes the hell out of a company, I'd do the same thing................seek cheap labor !

"Fair Tax Now !"..........................before it's too late ! :blink:

Southwind,

What is this "Fair Tax Now"? As for a global economy, we can have a global economy WITHOUT globalizing the American work force, at least we have one more window of opportunity to do so. The first opportunity was lost remember the garment industry?

As for Obama and is "posse" that is a group I can do without and I am a life long democrat. Did not vote for the fraud and will not ever vote for the fraud and it had/has zero to do with the color of his skin has everything to do with who he is and what his agenda is. I agree he is out to equalize income across the world as well as standards of living.

 

[Vimes]

Big brother is ran by and for big business and only panders to ‘Da Peeple’ when it is in their best interest to do so. Republicrats or Democans make little difference other than to attempt to divide the populace. Both sides support globalization as it is good for ‘business’. Big businesses have been offshoreing their headquarters to avoid taxes for years and today will be no different. Every time you hear the ‘catch phrase’ ‘doing work Americans won’t do’ remember that that is total bull####. The underlying meaning in this phrase is ‘doing work for next to nothing’. It has nothing to do with work being beneath American workers and all about the cost of labor in comparison to global labor markets.

I used to work with Engineers that complained that mechanics make too much. When I noted to them that they only make what they do only because the mechanics propped up their salary, some became indignant and touted their pedigree. When I foretold of the upcoming globalization (which actually started with California Farm Workers), I was once again admonished. When I forewarned of the invasion of H1B visa workers taking our jobs for less, I was again admonished.

Take a step back and look around now. Our boarders are open to cheap labor all the while the gooberment rants and raves on how it is protecting MeriKa.

We are being lied to and deceived at every opportunity and we our own worse enemy.

B) xUT

It is a sad state of affairs. When you say "Merika" are you referring to the North American Union that has been agreed to?

 

[Vimes]

As has been pointed out on this board before you would not be working for Delta, or any other major, if you had not slithered in the back door.

Actually I was offered a job by Delta right out of school. I chose a different path. I work at DTW I do not know many Delta mechs. The ones I have met have been very nice. I do not like unions because they stand for nothing but division and hypocrisy. I do not know what your reasoning is rather than sharing what your reasoning is you seem to be spending your words attacking me personally.

 

[Kev3188]

777,

Yes they blackmailed the industry,

I'd say that the UAW didn't do enough for it's members:

*The UAW has barely challenged the media propaganda that workers make $72 per hour--a figure that includes health care costs.

*And the union hasn't challenged job cuts that have seen the number of UAW workers at GM fall from 265,000 in 1992 to just 73,000 in 2007--even though the number of vehicles produced each year actually increased from 4.4 million to 4.5 million.

The first point is a massive failure, IMO.

The second is proof that the "blackmailing" people like to accuse the UAW of is a canard that only exists in the minds of those with an anti-labor agenda.

I do not like unions because they stand for nothing but division and hypocrisy.

Pot meet kettle. Kettle meet pot.

 

[777 fixer]

I have never said I have all the answers nor have I ever said I know everything. I will be the first person to tell you I am no better than anyone else nor any smarter. My unique background gives me a different perspective though. I grew up in a UAW household, I have a parent who is a UAW GM retiree, I chose to cross a picket line, I am adamantly against unions in the current form and I am part of an industry that has been on the down hill slide for years now and quite frankly I want better for airline employees and aircraft mechanics as a whole. Just because I express my opinion does not in any way intimate that I know everything, as dignity once stated that is what these boards are about sharing opinions and openly discussing them.

You grew up in a UAW household and yet have the audacity to accuse unions of hypocrisy? Hate to break the news to you but you had better look in the mirror before you go off and call other hypocrites. That's because you got to enjoy all the benefits of growing up in UAW household. That's assuming of course what you say is true. I find it a bit odd that someone who grew up in UAW household would go around saying the UAW bankrupted GM.

You say you want better for airline employees and aircraft mechanics yet by crossing a picket line you made it that much harder.

 

[777 fixer]

The sad facts today are if you think you have an opinion you better make sure its really your opinion and its based in fact because make no mistake MILLIONS of dollars are spent by organizations and groups out to shape your opinion and make you think its your very own.

Wow, once again that takes a lot of audacity to say. Especially considering the fact that in your very first post on this thread you repeated the mantra "the UAW bankrupted GM". I wonder who put that idea into your head. This is not the first time I've heard it. I've heard it on the radio, repeated on TV, read on the web etc. So Vimes, are you sure your opinions are your own and not just put there by someone else?

 

[777 fixer]

777fixer do you know what AMT used to mean? I used to and for most who have been in this industry very long means Aircraft Mechanical Trainee aka Technician. In the rest of the world Aircraft Mechanics are designated and educated as Aircraft Mechanical Engineers. Why do you think the designation has gone from A&P to AMT instead of from A&P to Aircraft Mechanical Engineer? Money that is why. Its a designation between skilled and unskilled labor. Yet many will proudly call themselves AMT's because it is something that has been sold to aircraft mechanics over the past few years.

Do you know why you got a job at NWA? So they company could pay their mechanics less money. And now other airlines hold over the heads of their mechanics what happened at NWA like the sword of Damocles. Congratulations.

Here's another thing, the only reason you make what you do at NWA is because of unions.

P.S. You sound an awful lot like a previous poster on the US Aviation boards.

 

[Dignity]

I wonder who put that idea into your head. This is not the first time I've heard it. I've heard it on the radio, repeated on TV, read on the web etc.

that is a very valid point..

to me, it would seem very difficult to state a worker bankrupted their company or the fact they were making a certain amount of money was the sole problem because I do not understand the full job description of an auto worker or what the job entails, what they are responsible for regarding so many different areas of technical aspects..

(I do not think people are necessary overpaid in this country taking into consideration, inflation does not always seem to be brought into picture..for the most part people want to make sure their families are taken care of, who can fault anyone for that?)

its just like how some think a Flight Attendant is 'overpaid' even with pay concession..

because all we do is serve food/drinks and put on a fancy looking uniform (which I happen to like very much...just had to throw that in there..)

there is so much to the profession and what we are responsible for from information to procedures that it seems we are just not paid enough..

(I do not think we are paid enough for how many aircraft we are/will be trained on)...JMHO.

the media or general opinion in this country doesn't always seem to fully grasp what a worker may actually do on their job.. but always seem to have a perception of how it is ...but in reality have no real idea.. sometimes the focus is just one aspect..because of how the media may portray a group...

sort of like..

they pay them how much just to serve peanuts...

(and then people believe that is all we do based on what they hear, see on tv, the movies....)

you know?