Union vs Non Union My Response

[southwind]

I'd say that the UAW didn't do enough for it's members:

*The UAW has barely challenged the media propaganda that workers make $72 per hour--a figure that includes health care costs.

*And the union hasn't challenged job cuts that have seen the number of UAW workers at GM fall from 265,000 in 1992 to just 73,000 in 2007--even though the number of vehicles produced each year actually increased from 4.4 million to 4.5 million.

The first point is a massive failure, IMO.

The second is proof that the "blackmailing" people like to accuse the UAW of is a canard that only exists in the minds of those with an anti-labor agenda.





Pot meet kettle. Kettle meet pot.

UAW must have done something right since "The Union" was put before secure debtors, during bankruptcy !

Nothing like the government backing you up simply because you helped get the POTUS elected !

They'll throw out all laws that don't fit their agenda !

And since secured debtors will no longer lend "Government Motors" money, guess who will......................me (not by choice) and you !

 

[southwind]

Southwind,

What is this "Fair Tax Now"? As for a global economy, we can have a global economy WITHOUT globalizing the American work force, at least we have one more window of opportunity to do so. The first opportunity was lost remember the garment industry?

As for Obama and is "posse" that is a group I can do without and I am a life long democrat. Did not vote for the fraud and will not ever vote for the fraud and it had/has zero to do with the color of his skin has everything to do with who he is and what his agenda is. I agree he is out to equalize income across the world as well as standards of living.

The Fair Tax is exactely what it says...............a fair tax!

Just a few points:

1.You keep your entire paycheck!
2. Denpending on your income and family members, you will recieve a "Cost of Living" check, from the government, to cover basic neccesitys, food, clothes,i.e.
3.You pay taxes only on "NEW" purchases, not on used cars,used houses,etc.
4. And most importantely, "EVERYONE" pays taxes, illeagal aliens, drug traffickers, foreign visitors, anyone who buys a new product in the U.S. !

Need I say more ?

Go to :

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

It's the only thing that will pull our economy, which is worsening daily, out of the nose dive it's in !

 

[T5towbar]

777,

Yes they blackmailed the industry, i.e. Job Bank, 100% medical/dental/vision while employed and retired, free cars, AND virtually free cars, months of paid time off and so much more, benefits that are so far out of the mainstream of America it almost too much to comprehend. Yes their blackmail was a huge part of pushing them into bankruptcy not completely but certainly a major factor. How many corners did the company cut in order to keep the cost of the vehicles down in order to absorb the UAW blackmail into the cost of the vehicles produced?

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa........!

All of those things were NEGOTIATED in good faith between management and labor.
It was not blackmail. Those "so called" benefits weren't out of the mainstream for a large corporation. That's the reason for collective bargaining. Give and Take. PERIOD. Every major corporation has bean counters and accountants who know how much money they can afford to outlay for those "outrageous" costs. Management lacked the foresight to see what was coming down the pike, and dropped the ball. Americans loved their "big assed" cars, and SUV's and the money was coming in. But the price of gas raised, and the rest was history. The health care costs (which is a major outlay cost for any company) are too high (the President wants to address this problem, but a lot of special interests - who will buy off the politicians) will try to stop it cold. IMHO, if a plan works, it would be a major cost lifted off companies who want to do the right thing and provide health care to their employees. Let's see what happens on this front, since the present system isn't working.

I had to chime in, because my parents were proud UAW members. (My Dad at GM and My Mom at Ford). They weren't making the extravagant wages like the propagandists say. Most auto workers lived with the ups and downs, of strikes, plant closings, and downturns in the economy. The UAW was there to protect the workers. When the Ford plant closed in Mahwah, NJ, my Mom retired with a decent pension. and finished her working career at a auto parts distributor. My Dad left GM when the Linden plant finally closed their doors. Both of them gave my family a good living standard, but they worked hard as hell in doing so. I have been in non union workplaces (CO) and Union workplaces (USPS - my second job), and there are differences. Right now we for the first time, we are seeing a downturn in mail (except the bills of course) and the propagandists say we are overbloated. And of course, we will take some hits too. But what I don't understand is why the attack on blue collar, hard working jobs. We all can't go to college (for reasons financial and otherwise) and a lot of people have become successful right out of high school, who worked into a good job. The attack on Unions is misguided by a few people who wants to go back to the "Gilded Age" where we must work for peanuts and the bosses get all of the profits. Why?

Like in my previous posts, some people want us to go back to the bad old days. A lot of people feel (myself included) that collective bargaining is the proper thing to do in some cases. We do not want to bankrupt the companies that we work for. We want to help them by keeping management honest; keeping safety standards and workrules; treating employees fairly; and providing decent and livable pay to their employees. A happy workforce is a productive workforce, who can add to the company's productivity, and of course profits. The Automakers didn't see it coming. We're in a business (the Airline business) where there is constant turmoil; and ups and downs; and a whole heap of bad management types. (just like the automakers). We've survived cutbacks; mergers; layoffs; bankruptcies; even 9/11, but for how long? How much more can we give back? You can't keep going back to the employees when management screws up. They get paid the big bucks for managing and forecasting their assets and futures.

What do you guys want..........100 percent profits for the management and ZERO percent for the employees who actually do the work?

It's not about union VS non-union.
It's about what's right and wrong. Let the votes happen.

 

[southwind]

Agreed.....................let the votes happen ! Just get it over with, one way or the other so everyone can move on ! :blink:

 

[UAL_TECH]

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa........!

All of those things were NEGOTIATED in good faith between management and labor.
It was not blackmail. Those "so called" benefits weren't out of the mainstream for a large corporation. That's the reason for collective bargaining. Give and Take. PERIOD. Every major corporation has bean counters and accountants who know how much money they can afford to outlay for those "outrageous" costs. Management lacked the foresight to see what was coming down the pike, and dropped the ball. Americans loved their "big assed" cars, and SUV's and the money was coming in. But the price of gas raised, and the rest was history. The health care costs (which is a major outlay cost for any company) are too high (the President wants to address this problem, but a lot of special interests - who will buy off the politicians) will try to stop it cold. IMHO, if a plan works, it would be a major cost lifted off companies who want to do the right thing and provide health care to their employees. Let's see what happens on this front, since the present system isn't working.

I had to chime in, because my parents were proud UAW members. (My Dad at GM and My Mom at Ford). They weren't making the extravagant wages like the propagandists say. Most auto workers lived with the ups and downs, of strikes, plant closings, and downturns in the economy. The UAW was there to protect the workers. When the Ford plant closed in Mahwah, NJ, my Mom retired with a decent pension. and finished her working career at a auto parts distributor. My Dad left GM when the Linden plant finally closed their doors. Both of them gave my family a good living standard, but they worked hard as hell in doing so. I have been in non union workplaces (CO) and Union workplaces (USPS - my second job), and there are differences. Right now we for the first time, we are seeing a downturn in mail (except the bills of course) and the propagandists say we are overbloated. And of course, we will take some hits too. But what I don't understand is why the attack on blue collar, hard working jobs. We all can't go to college (for reasons financial and otherwise) and a lot of people have become successful right out of high school, who worked into a good job. The attack on Unions is misguided by a few people who wants to go back to the "Gilded Age" where we must work for peanuts and the bosses get all of the profits. Why?

Like in my previous posts, some people want us to go back to the bad old days. A lot of people feel (myself included) that collective bargaining is the proper thing to do in some cases. We do not want to bankrupt the companies that we work for. We want to help them by keeping management honest; keeping safety standards and workrules; treating employees fairly; and providing decent and livable pay to their employees. A happy workforce is a productive workforce, who can add to the company's productivity, and of course profits. The Automakers didn't see it coming. We're in a business (the Airline business) where there is constant turmoil; and ups and downs; and a whole heap of bad management types. (just like the automakers). We've survived cutbacks; mergers; layoffs; bankruptcies; even 9/11, but for how long? How much more can we give back? You can't keep going back to the employees when management screws up. They get paid the big bucks for managing and forecasting their assets and futures.

What do you guys want..........100 percent profits for the management and ZERO percent for the employees who actually do the work?

It's not about union VS non-union.
It's about what's right and wrong. Let the votes happen.

I believe that 777 was being facetious and cynical in response to the same nonsense that is repeated here and every where else.
I think many here agree with you except for the few scabs that haunt this site.
Good Luck to you and everyone else whom depends on this FU'd industry for a living.
Fortunately, I got mine and got out, but just barely in the nick of time.

Best Regards,
B) xUAL_TECH

 

[UAL_TECH]

UAW must have done something right since "The Union" was put before secure debtors, during bankruptcy !

Nothing like the government backing you up simply because you helped get the POTUS elected !

They'll throw out all laws that don't fit their agenda !

And since secured debtors will no longer lend "Government Motors" money, guess who will......................me (not by choice) and you !

Did you just fall off of a turnip truck or what?
Do you remember the ENRON debacle? No union there but employees were screwed over.
Trust capitalistic markets, yea, how did that work out?
Free market? How did that 'solve' economics?
California power conglomerates turned over to 'free markets' and we all got the hose!
People will continue to get screwed, screw themselves, their families and future if they do not wake the F' Up!

Blame the 'employees' for trying to secure pay and benefits while the corporate raiders put us all in the poor house.
A 'PURE' capitalistic society will not succeed. There has to be a balance of capitalism and socialism and that is where the business ethics code came from. Where is the business ethics code today?
There used to be ROI calculations based on a 10-20 year ROI. What are the ROI calculations now? Try '30-90 days'!
Good, try to put out a multimillion product with an ROI of thirty days.
Good F'N luck.
Go out and get an SBA loan today and learn how 'impossible' it is.

You and a few 'others' here #### about an 'agenda'. Well, here's a clue for you, the 'agenda' is to make you believe that one party has all the answers and will protect your interests... The 'other' party does the same damn thing!



How's that working out?

B) xUT

 

[UAL_TECH]

It is a sad state of affairs. When you say "Merika" are you referring to the North American Union that has been agreed to?

I didn't agree to it. Did YOU?

B) xUT

 

[UAL_TECH]

Southwind,

What is this "Fair Tax Now"? As for a global economy, we can have a global economy WITHOUT globalizing the American work force, at least we have one more window of opportunity to do so. The first opportunity was lost remember the garment industry?

As for Obama and is "posse" that is a group I can do without and I am a life long democrat. Did not vote for the fraud and will not ever vote for the fraud and it had/has zero to do with the color of his skin has everything to do with who he is and what his agenda is. I agree he is out to equalize income across the world as well as standards of living.

My GOD!

Do you even know #### From Shinola ?

 

[Vimes]

I'd say that the UAW didn't do enough for it's members:

*The UAW has barely challenged the media propaganda that workers make $72 per hour--a figure that includes health care costs.

*And the union hasn't challenged job cuts that have seen the number of UAW workers at GM fall from 265,000 in 1992 to just 73,000 in 2007--even though the number of vehicles produced each year actually increased from 4.4 million to 4.5 million.

The first point is a massive failure, IMO.

The second is proof that the "blackmailing" people like to accuse the UAW of is a canard that only exists in the minds of those with an anti-labor agenda.


Pre-White House take over auto workers annual salary EXCLUDING bennies 80,000.00 per year now that the gov and the union own GM annual salary is 60,000.00 education required High School or GED only, and that is negotiable. PLUS ALL THE BENNIES of free cars, ultra low cost cars, and no longer will they have 100% paid medical they will have to contribute to the health insurance just like almost every other working American.


Pot meet kettle. Kettle meet pot.

 

[Vimes]

You grew up in a UAW household and yet have the audacity to accuse unions of hypocrisy? Hate to break the news to you but you had better look in the mirror before you go off and call other hypocrites. That's because you got to enjoy all the benefits of growing up in UAW household. That's assuming of course what you say is true. I find it a bit odd that someone who grew up in UAW household would go around saying the UAW bankrupted GM.

You say you want better for airline employees and aircraft mechanics yet by crossing a picket line you made it that much harder.

Yep, my father left aviation and went to GM when I was very young. I did grow up in a GM UAW household and I saw everything that went on and the attitudes of the workers. My parents also ran a very successful business. Boy did I get to see two sides of the coin.

I did nothing of harm by crossing AMFA's poor excuse for a picket line, no the harm was done when not a single union or group of mechs did anything of substance to reclassify aircraft mechanics they did nothing to save jobs or increase aviation employment, when unions and their membership knifed each other in the back, watched their co-workers roll their boxes out the door while sitting there looking at new car and/or boat brochures and talking about what they were going to spend their raises on AS THEY WATCHED THEIR CO-WORKERS ROLL THEIR BOXES OUT THE DOOR JOBLESS SO A FEW COULD REAP THE PROFIT OF THEIR LOST PAYCHECKS, no it was not me nor my counterparts, it was when the unions claimed to stand for the membership and what was genuinely in their best interest and yet did so by creating an air of false superiority, no it was when the unions and their membership did nothing but moan and whine about farm outs even in some cases gleefully accepted mass farm outs for afew dollars an hour payoff. No you can cry all you want about the AMFA strike and those which crossed the line, but you better look a little closer to home.

Why do you think the unions can not get into any new facilities? Why do you think the repair stations are not union? You think its because the companies will not allow it, that is simply not the truth. I have worked at these repair stations and the WORKERS will tell you things like "I can stand up for myself" "I can negotiate my own wage" and "Hell they dont do anything but take your money and piss everyone off" (actual comments from fellow A & P's at repair stations)

 

[Vimes]

Wow, once again that takes a lot of audacity to say. Especially considering the fact that in your very first post on this thread you repeated the mantra "the UAW bankrupted GM". I wonder who put that idea into your head. This is not the first time I've heard it. I've heard it on the radio, repeated on TV, read on the web etc. So Vimes, are you sure your opinions are your own and not just put there by someone else?

Actually I have been saying it for years.

 

[Vimes]

Do you know why you got a job at NWA? So they company could pay their mechanics less money. And now other airlines hold over the heads of their mechanics what happened at NWA like the sword of Damocles. Congratulations.

Here's another thing, the only reason you make what you do at NWA is because of unions.

P.S. You sound an awful lot like a previous poster on the US Aviation boards.

What a unique parable to cite. After all the Sword of Damocles moral is basically, if there is a sword hanging over your head all the time you can never be happy; where in the sword represents worry or stress or a threat of some kind.

Do you not think the unions held their own 'Sword of Damocles' over the heads of company management and every other work group that did not belong to said union and over the heads of every shareholder and over the heads of their very own membership based on seniority quashing motivation of their very own membership? Well except for the motivation to be there longer than anyone else so you can step on whomever you want to. It would be a failure in the interpretation of the anecdote / parable to interpret it so very narrowly after all Dionysius was only referring to those fears and worries of "great men". All responsibility experienced by any individual or group can be viewed as a 'Sword of Damocles'.

Frankly I made more money as a contractor because of per diem and tax write-offs and considering 3 months off per year.

I own nothing to ANY union other than a thank you for exacerbating the farm out of work, accelerating the down hill slide of all of manufacturing in America and thereby all of working America, for stagnating the labor movement by a stalwart approach used since the 1800's. Further I assure you the 'thank you' would be a factitious comment at best.

Who I would like to meet him/her?

 

[Vimes]

that is a very valid point..

to me, it would seem very difficult to state a worker bankrupted their company or the fact they were making a certain amount of money was the sole problem because I do not understand the full job description of an auto worker or what the job entails, what they are responsible for regarding so many different areas of technical aspects..

(I do not think people are necessary overpaid in this country taking into consideration, inflation does not always seem to be brought into picture..for the most part people want to make sure their families are taken care of, who can fault anyone for that?)

its just like how some think a Flight Attendant is 'overpaid' even with pay concession..

because all we do is serve food/drinks and put on a fancy looking uniform (which I happen to like very much...just had to throw that in there..)

there is so much to the profession and what we are responsible for from information to procedures that it seems we are just not paid enough..

(I do not think we are paid enough for how many aircraft we are/will be trained on)...JMHO.

the media or general opinion in this country doesn't always seem to fully grasp what a worker may actually do on their job.. but always seem to have a perception of how it is ...but in reality have no real idea.. sometimes the focus is just one aspect..because of how the media may portray a group...

sort of like..

they pay them how much just to serve peanuts...

(and then people believe that is all we do based on what they hear, see on tv, the movies....)

you know?

Dignity,

My ideas and thoughts and opinions are my own. Yes I do look at both sides of every issue to the best of my ability, to do otherwise would be narrow minded.

In reference to flight attendants: (This is just my honest opinion)

Flight attendants have been sold to the general public as flying waitresses. The flight attendants as a whole have not countered this effort effectively AND THEY MUST. I do not see flight attendants as flying waitresses I see them as safety professionals who are simply diverse enough to be able to offer very valuable additional inflight services to the customers. Here again the flight attendants unions have failed their membership miserably possibly to the future complete decimation of the profession. You stated you do not feel you are paid enough, well I agree, but you will not be the pay will continue to decrease until flight attendants re-market themselves as a profession, therein gaining public respect and ending the flying waitress mentality.

It is not that Americans are overpaid its bigger than that. It is we, all of us, have allowed the globalization of our own work force in doing so we have consequences to face and to negate those consequences is simply wishful thinking. We have to turn this around on many fronts in order to regain what America as a whole once had which was a genuine standard of living which companies could afford to provide their employees. As a country we produce virtually nothing now, we used to produce everything, as professionals from multiple professions within aviation we have allowed the degradation of our own professions all of these actions or lack of actions have consequences.

You mentioned public perceptions well here are afew:
Pilots, they are just overpaid babysitters you know there is auto pilot they just push afew buttons
Flight Attendants, flying waitresses, sky ho's (sorry about that one I really hate that one)
Rampers, Bag Throwers, Thieves, Knuckle Draggers and other such degrading garbage
Mechanics, Grease Monkeys, Unskilled Grease Monkeys, nothing but tire changers

EVERY ONE OF THESE VIEWS (and more and worse) MUST BE CHANGED!!!!! No one can do that but US. The unions sure as heck are not and have not done anything about it there by perpetuating it. It is in the airlines interest to see these public perceptions changed just as much as it is in our interest to see these perceptions changed, but right now with the way labor relations work their interest are split between keeping labor cost in line with trying to have the public view air travel as something more than just people hauling. Keeping cost in line will always win out because some shmuck media firm will convince the CEO's they can out media the non-professional public view. instead of actually putting in the work to bring everyone together to change it all at once for EVERYONES BENEFIT.

The Airline would benefit because people would be more willing to PAY for seats instead of the cattle haulers. Work groups would benefit because the company could not afford not to compensate their professionals and the stock holders would benefits because rev's would increase and not all would be spent on labor cost and stocks would rise because of the publics perception of the work groups as well as the public and the streets view of positive new innovative labor/management relations which would actually provide virtually immediate benefits for everyone concerned.

 

[Vimes]

The Fair Tax is exactely what it says...............a fair tax!

Just a few points:

1.You keep your entire paycheck!
2. Denpending on your income and family members, you will recieve a "Cost of Living" check, from the government, to cover basic neccesitys, food, clothes,i.e.
3.You pay taxes only on "NEW" purchases, not on used cars,used houses,etc.
4. And most importantely, "EVERYONE" pays taxes, illeagal aliens, drug traffickers, foreign visitors, anyone who buys a new product in the U.S. !

Need I say more ?

Go to :

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

It's the only thing that will pull our economy, which is worsening daily, out of the nose dive it's in !

Southwind,

Very interesting, I will definitely look into this and pass it to some others. Thank you very much

 

[Vimes]

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa........!

All of those things were NEGOTIATED in good faith between management and labor.
It was not blackmail. Those "so called" benefits weren't out of the mainstream for a large corporation. That's the reason for collective bargaining. Give and Take. PERIOD. Every major corporation has bean counters and accountants who know how much money they can afford to outlay for those "outrageous" costs. Management lacked the foresight to see what was coming down the pike, and dropped the ball. Americans loved their "big assed" cars, and SUV's and the money was coming in. But the price of gas raised, and the rest was history. The health care costs (which is a major outlay cost for any company) are too high (the President wants to address this problem, but a lot of special interests - who will buy off the politicians) will try to stop it cold. IMHO, if a plan works, it would be a major cost lifted off companies who want to do the right thing and provide health care to their employees. Let's see what happens on this front, since the present system isn't working.

I had to chime in, because my parents were proud UAW members. (My Dad at GM and My Mom at Ford). They weren't making the extravagant wages like the propagandists say. Most auto workers lived with the ups and downs, of strikes, plant closings, and downturns in the economy. The UAW was there to protect the workers. When the Ford plant closed in Mahwah, NJ, my Mom retired with a decent pension. and finished her working career at a auto parts distributor. My Dad left GM when the Linden plant finally closed their doors. Both of them gave my family a good living standard, but they worked hard as hell in doing so. I have been in non union workplaces (CO) and Union workplaces (USPS - my second job), and there are differences. Right now we for the first time, we are seeing a downturn in mail (except the bills of course) and the propagandists say we are overbloated. And of course, we will take some hits too. But what I don't understand is why the attack on blue collar, hard working jobs. We all can't go to college (for reasons financial and otherwise) and a lot of people have become successful right out of high school, who worked into a good job. The attack on Unions is misguided by a few people who wants to go back to the "Gilded Age" where we must work for peanuts and the bosses get all of the profits. Why?

Like in my previous posts, some people want us to go back to the bad old days. A lot of people feel (myself included) that collective bargaining is the proper thing to do in some cases. We do not want to bankrupt the companies that we work for. We want to help them by keeping management honest; keeping safety standards and workrules; treating employees fairly; and providing decent and livable pay to their employees. A happy workforce is a productive workforce, who can add to the company's productivity, and of course profits. The Automakers didn't see it coming. We're in a business (the Airline business) where there is constant turmoil; and ups and downs; and a whole heap of bad management types. (just like the automakers). We've survived cutbacks; mergers; layoffs; bankruptcies; even 9/11, but for how long? How much more can we give back? You can't keep going back to the employees when management screws up. They get paid the big bucks for managing and forecasting their assets and futures.

What do you guys want..........100 percent profits for the management and ZERO percent for the employees who actually do the work?

It's not about union VS non-union.
It's about what's right and wrong. Let the votes happen.

T5towbar,

1st, I am not against blue collar wokers in the least. I think everyone deserves a decent standard of living because not everyone is cut out for college and not all professions require college and everyone deserves to give their families a decent standard of living. Having said that, blue collar workers have done this to themselves in large part. Every time an American worker purchases something at Walmart (nothing made in the USA there) or every time an American workers buys foreign vehicles or every time an American union worker went into negotiations and never ever made any request of management only went in with a give us give us stand you have to understand our value.

Every foreign car purchase has a consequence for all American workers, every shopping trip to Walmart has a consequence, every time a union negotiated with a give us give us stand instead of something fresh and open and creative that included upper management there has been consequence to pay, every time a union blackmailed, by threat of shutting down production, a company and called it negotiations there were and are consequences to pay via the general public. We are paying those consequences now and its a damn big price tag. If we do not change thing and yes we have to stop the lopsided giving back issue as well as many others America will be at 3rd world wages and 3rd world standards of living. But to do that you have to be able to approach management and shareholders with something that is really in EVERYONE'S BEST INTEREST INCLUDING CEO'S AND SHAREHOLDERS AND THEIR POCKETBOOKS TOO.

You asked "What do you guys want..........100 percent profits for the management and ZERO percent for the employees who actually do the work? I want to be CRYSTAL CLEAR HERE.........ABSOLUTELY NOT!