Union vs Non Union My Response

[JAMECH]

Yep that about sum it up nicely... Except lets take the last two choices you mention and apply them to the AMFA strike. "You could 1 walk out and jeoperdize your families future or continue to work for what you consider to be fair wages and benefits". Well lets suppose that your seniority fell in the 53 percent of mechanics to be eliminated and the more senior guys who stayed were going to take a 23 percent hit on the pay...Ok lets suppose you think this is a fair offer but the membership voted to take it to the street even though if it was voted in you would be out of a job are you telling me you would continue to work and not support the vote and go on strike? Seems pretty damn selfish doesn't it? After all I could have done that as I was in the 53 percent to be out of a job. Wouldn't you think that was pretty selfish of me to cross my picket line because I am my own man right even though I was technically out of a job and there were guys senior to me who are out on the picket line who would NOT have been out of a job but are out there fighting to help me keep me and the other 53 percent from going to the curb? Yet there were guys who did just that. I don't care what you think about unions that is just plain wrong and the people who do it are the lowest of the low. I don't want to hear the excuses either. I have a mortage, I have a family too. I worked two jobs to pay the bills because we could not collect unemployment. I did what I had to do until I was fortunate enough to be hired by a great company. I feel I was blessed because I did the right thing and did not take the easy route. I can hold my head high because not only was I honorable but I help many of my fellow honorable co-workers get hired here as well. But again every man makes his own choices in life. Some have grown to regret it BIG TIME.

Selfish? It sounds like the 53% decided that if they could not have their jobs nobody could have a job without crossing a line. 20/20 hindsight again. It also tells us that 23% less pay is better than 100% less pay.

 

[JAMECH]

Selfish? It sounds like the 53% decided that if they could not have their jobs nobody could have a job without crossing a line. 20/20 hindsight again. It also tells us that 23% less pay is better than 100% less pay.

I can almost see and hear the 53% standing around saying "f it I'm gonna be on the street anyway why not try to save my job" (selfish?) with out thinking that their actions were gonna cause the other 47% to at the least have to make a very difficult decision and at worst join them on the street! All with 20/20 again of course.

 

[777 fixer]

I have NEVER said the failure of the auto industry was the exclusive fault of the UAW and/or its members, NEVER. As for the "get a grip" comment well yeah, I mean COME ON THE JOB BANK in and of itself was arrogance, and utter greeeeeed proving the UAW was totally out of touch with working America among many other things. UAW retiree medical bennies are not over either by the way.

No what you said was, once again, Oh and how is that union thing working out for thousands of auto workers? Looks like they blackmailed the entire industry into bankruptcy to me. How else was I supposed to interpret this? You made no mention of the fact that the UAW does not design the cars nor do they decide which cars to bring to market. And yes I know UAW medical benefits are not ended. However GM is no longer covering 100% of the costs.

 

[southwind]

Sad thing is people read your drivel and believe it.
This 'discussion' has been put to MeriKa workers 'numerous' times.
Unfortunately, most agree with you even though the they imperil their own country and families.
It is people like ‘you’ that subjugate America through the ‘fractional-truisms’ to make it appear factual.

Here is a little ‘factual truism’ that everyone here should pay attention to:

Fact:
Globalization of labor is here!
Affect:
Lower wages and benefits for American workers, some small gains for immigrant workers trying to equalize, huge profits for CEO’s and executives (but of course you being a stalwart in the industry that CEO and executive compensation has skyrocketed more than ten fold that of the labor force? Yes of course you do…)

Your part has only xxxxxx exasperated the inevitable.

B) xUT


PS:
You Suck!

When all the company's are owned and operated by Obama and his posse , who you gonna blame then !

Who's been the biggest pusher of a global economy.............that's right ........Big Brother !

And when Big Brother taxes the hell out of a company, I'd do the same thing................seek cheap labor !

"Fair Tax Now !"..........................before it's too late ! :blink:

 

[Dignity]

Although the public at large has no soft spot for auto workers around the country you will find people largely believe they are over paid over indulged and under educated there is a pervasive sense around America (from non union American workers) that UAW members are or were screwing their companies and screwing every car buyer as well.

under educated? to me, that seems like such an unfair blanket generalization!

I am sorry but it is the truth of what a lot of Joe and Jane average working American's who pay car payments feel and think.

car payments?

yeah I know...

some people will turn around and blame a worker for the amount of their car payment....(but then sometimes..forget...who agreed to the terms in the first place, why their payment may have a higher interest rate, based on their own personal credit, and also that payment may be present because someone bought what they 'wanted' instead of what they actually needed!)

know what Im saying?

(there have always been vehicles made to fit all budgets)

the problem sometimes is... people, may have in the past, not necessarily bought what actually fits their budget, but may have overextend themselves and then only to turn around and say..

"well if they werent paying those people so much I wouldn't have to make this outrageous car payment."

I have tragically.. heard that one....before!

it can also be viewed as an excuse and shifting personal responsibility onto someone else..

but I sort of get what you were saying.

If you ask them for their opinions about UAW members well I promise their language can get quite colorful.

colorful language?

well!

I always find it interesting someone may assume another person is "under educated" but then resort to that type of language...

who is the real "under educated" one...(if someone wants to go there..)

if you know what Im saying...

 

[UAL_TECH]

When all the company's are owned and operated by Obama and his posse , who you gonna blame then !

Who's been the biggest pusher of a global economy.............that's right ........Big Brother !

And when Big Brother taxes the hell out of a company, I'd do the same thing................seek cheap labor !

"Fair Tax Now !"..........................before it's too late ! :blink:

Big brother is ran by and for big business and only panders to ‘Da Peeple’ when it is in their best interest to do so. Republicrats or Democans make little difference other than to attempt to divide the populace. Both sides support globalization as it is good for ‘business’. Big businesses have been offshoreing their headquarters to avoid taxes for years and today will be no different. Every time you hear the ‘catch phrase’ ‘doing work Americans won’t do’ remember that that is total bull####. The underlying meaning in this phrase is ‘doing work for next to nothing’. It has nothing to do with work being beneath American workers and all about the cost of labor in comparison to global labor markets.

I used to work with Engineers that complained that mechanics make too much. When I noted to them that they only make what they do only because the mechanics propped up their salary, some became indignant and touted their pedigree. When I foretold of the upcoming globalization (which actually started with California Farm Workers), I was once again admonished. When I forewarned of the invasion of H1B visa workers taking our jobs for less, I was again admonished.

Take a step back and look around now. Our boarders are open to cheap labor all the while the gooberment rants and raves on how it is protecting MeriKa.

We are being lied to and deceived at every opportunity and we our own worse enemy.

B) xUT

 

[Don Smith]

Lots of truth in in two sentences. The Vimes's come in here and talk ALOT about how they saved the airline and now are reshaping it for the betterment of all the work groups. A SCAB is a SCAB and nothing will ever change that. Whatever his reason for crossing is, his status is the same. Accusations of wrongdoing by honorable mechanics is still unsupported. If I say "I know what happened because I was there" and the Vimes's say they were there you just have to weigh them both and decide for yourselves. I just won't waste 8,000 words saying it. We had the PTO's, the Czars and now the Vimes's. I get tired of having to reeducate every SCAB that shows up here.

People like Opus, er, Vimes will always try to justify their existence/motives. It's the same song and dance over and over. Unfortunately, it's usually in the form of really long bandwidth-wasting posts that talk a lot, but don't say a thing.

 

[lineguy43]

Selfish? What about the impact of your decision to attempt to harm the company you work for on all of the other employees of that company? 20/20 hindsight says that this noble cause of these seniors was a kamikaze mission. You can tell me how "honorable" the pilots are when their strike costs you so they can get an extra $20 hour and 3 more days a month off. How much of an "honorable" sacrifice are you willing to make for those guys? Do you think their union will honor your picket line? There's that 20/20 hindsight again.

The pilots union did NOT honor our strike....Also when the pilots went on strike in 98 most of us were laid off for about 2 weeks but hey I didn't care they felt strong enough to go out for whatever reason they had my support. Now there is a big difference between going on strike for salary and benefits and what happened to us. What NW did was unpresidented. They were going to eliminate virtually an entire workgroup can't you get that through your thick skull? Talk about my impact of my decision to harm the company..Jeeezz......Dude you just don't get it do you.....You and Vimes deserve to be at the bottom of the industry with attitudes like yours. Hey maybe you can work for British Airways they are looking for people to work for free right?

 

[JAMECH]

"They were going to eliminate virtually an entire workgroup"

Why? Was it simply greed on the part of management and shareholders?
Or was it the economic reality of a failed business model and an attempt to try and cut costs where possible? How sucessful were they at turning the biz around? Which direction have wages gone in the passenger airlines? What part has unionism played in this trend? You're right, they were going to do what they did. 53% were leaving one way or another. What percentage of the original pre-strike workgroup end up unemployed?

You think your decision and action to strike had no impact on the future of the company?

I already have a job in with a major express AIRLINE and it ain't for free.

 

[Dignity]

the economic reality of a failed business model and an attempt to try and cut costs where possible?

they did not have a failed business model in terms of a company that was not viable, because it was and is.., the reality was simply a combination of events starting with the devastating downturn after 9/11 in the industry overall..and simply the model was not competitive in terms of what some people were willing to pay, at the time jet fuel was soaring at record levels. of course these events had nothing really to do with the business aspect rather than planning, or should I say lack of..(that falls on management, that is their job)

How sucessful were they at turning the biz around?

to me, it appeared management wasnt even trying to turn anything around, it seemed they just wanted to eliminate the workforces.

 

[JAMECH]

Eliminate the work force to cut costs? Or were there other reasons for replacing the majority of the work group?
Obviously oil prices, 9-11 were major factors in the airlines losing money.
Plan for 9-11 No/ plan for oil prices Yes

 

[Dignity]

the workforces that were targeted for elimination would have gone to basically year 1989 for Flight Attendants, that would have been all the newly hired, all those furloughed and rehired, all those hired in the early 1990's when the emphasis was those who spoke Asian languages (go figure that one) and basically everyone hired after the merger, these people ages ranged from mid 20's to late 30's to early 40's. cutting cost laying off all the junior people and those in the mid seniority range ...

in that situation, cutting cost, hardly...

(especially when they had just paid thousands to each of the replacement Flight Attendants and also had an activation bonus lined up for each of them upward to 10 thousand dollars) yes, the replacements were a mouthy bunch and had no problem spilling all the details...


they werent saving money, they were eliminating the workforces (or that is what they tried to do)

it was a slap in the face to all of us, after we had,

all gave concessions prior and worked together in the early 1990's to avert bankruptcy after they took control in 1989, made the airline ontime for 10 years enabling record profits in the company history.

its like all our hard work for the past 20 years just..

did not matter.

live and learn.

 

[Vimes]

You bring up some good points especially about farmouts. Unfortunately heavy maintenance is all but finished at the airlines as most all of it is farmed out now. So since the unions have not been successful in stopping farmouts and certainly non-union mechanics have not been able to stop it all we have is the line and some hanger in the form of smaller checks i.e B checks. Zero farmouts is a nice dream but unless you are willing to sell out for wages that compete with Aeroman in El Salvador it is still unlikely you are going to stop it. American Airlines is about as close to doing most all of it's work in house and while they may employ more mechanics I don't think they are a real happy bunch over there. Personally I would rather hit the street than partake in the race to the bottom in wages and benefits. You walked across our line and NWA has the least amount of mechanics per a/c than any other airline bar none. AA has the most a 22 mechaincs per a/c and NWA has the lowest at.08 mechanics per a/c...Doesn't sound like you saved the world from farmouts by your actions now does it? I lost a lot of vacation I had with NWA and just missed having retirement flight benefits. But I make more in salary than I ever did including at the height of the AMFA contract at FedEx I can fly jumpseat not as glamorous as my first class travel at NWA but nonetheless it is a free ride but most importantly I didn't have to move and I feel more stable even in this environment than I ever did at NW so I guess all in all AMFA and NW did me a favor in the long run. Bottom line is whether you agree with AMFA or unions in general or not you and all the other scabs undermined any chance of getting gains for the mechaincs in the industry by helping NW bust the union. It is now back to being a race to the bottom again while everything else in life in the way of expenditures is going up. Good luck in your effort to save the companies from farming out...Maybe when the mechanic wages are down to 5 bucks an hour you will get your wish. Unfortunately you and others like you are rapidly making that happen.

Heavy maint. does not have to be finished at the majors, nor do our wages have to be inline with those of 3rd world countries although that is what this white house is certainly working towards, every single union representing mechs has FAILED to tell them the truth and further has FAILED to do anything about the truth. Our profession is circling the drain and has been for many years. Absolutely the Dept of Labor classification needs changed and has needed so for many years. The unions did nothing more than feel good attempts they never really made a genuine effort. The FAA could careless, you and I both know that. The IAM gleefully accepts farmouts and contractors on mass scale approx 50% at some facilities.

Did either the IAM or AMFA ever stand up and tell you the whole truth. Because people can become insulated to some information. Did they every say we have to get the public on our side? Did they ever have any fresh new ideas about how to do that? No one is going to listen to aircraft mechanics as a group if the message is coming from the union and not the mechanics themselves. Unions have proven they are utterly incapable of communicating with the public. Shaping the public's opinion is one of the only ways the classification is going to get changed. It is also one of the things that has to be used to assist in STOPPING farm outs.

The union bosses had the money (your money) and the power to shape the publics opinion and they used it for junkets for politicians and for themselves and other such non-effectual endeavors instead of using it to reach the public and shape the publics opinion. There is no altruism amongst union bosses. They are out for your $$$$$ and their own prestige and their own pocket books.

In 01 did the concept of saying to the membership ever come up that our industry is circling the drain and here is what we need to do in order to save jobs and increase employment AND be cost effective for the airline. Hell no they did not. They stood up and said well we loose some but we gonna get you more money. You seemed to be ok if not happy about the 01 contract as long as you were not the one going out the door. Well you had fellow members and fellow employees that were going out the door and they had families to feed and bills to pay, but when the tables were turned and it was you that was going to be going out the door the tunes sure changed. That is called Karma....what goes around comes around.


I am not a scab I am a scar although the healing is still taking place. Those who crossed the ineffectual picket lines did not do anything to degrade the industry AMFA and its membership brought that on themselves. Quite afew of the ones who crossed the picket lines were the very ones you and your fellow members had stabbed in the back in 01. Those of us who were professional contractors do not like the likes of MAE or LAKE SHITTY or SAA and we would like to see something done about them. However I think Delta employees have the opportunity to make an incredible start to return the aviation industry to the profession we all love and one everyone can be proud of and a growing industry. If we can learn to stand together for each other and not against each other for our own greedy benefit. The unions never bothered to look at a long range view they only looked at the coming negotiations and how much could the bleed the mean evil company.

I am happy for you that you have found a more positive place for yourself and I wish you many years of happy gainful employment; however you are still part of this industry and just because you work for a freight carrier doesnt mean you are immune from what is going on within the industry. It will be there to roost far sooner than you would care to consider. Think about it the freight carriers farm out A LOT OF MAINTENANCE already. You think they are not open to more? The problem is multi faceted and has to be attacked from multiple directions. I do not have all the answers and have never claimed to but I do genuinely love aviation and care about the industry as a whole and I think we are on the precipice of loosing everything if we can not work together as adults for something bigger than just ourselves.

You said "Bottom line is whether you agree with AMFA or unions in general or not you and all the other scabs undermined any chance of getting gains for the mechanics in the industry by helping NW bust the union. excuse me but NOT! AMFA nor its membership did ANYTHING for the industry rather it was all about select individual "gains" rather than a long range view of the industry as a whole. AMFA was never about making changes in the industry that was simply lip service to get the votes they needed. Take a hard look at where the money went.

 

[Vimes]

Well said Lineguy43.

At my station, all of us have gone on to do well outside of NWA. Many went to CAL. They were pleased to get the experience. I chose a different path. I resumed my college career in early 2005 and have surpassed all salary expectations of any A&P/Avionics Tech.

People like this guy vimes (PTO, etc...), who are now going to save the airline are laughable at best. Here is someone who could not land an A&P job until the airline was dragging bottom for applicants. Now, he knows all, and is going to solve all that ails the industry. Give me a break. He was an economic necessity. They will kick him to the curb when needed. He has proven that he will turn and put the gun on his co-worker when necessary to cover his own hide.

Yep, man-up big guy, until the boss slaps you and tells you that you are his boy.

Tech2101,

Congratulations on returning to college. Certainly a laudable choice. Although it seems much of your self esteem is tied quite tightly to the size of your paycheck. Further you seem to attempt to continue with attempts at character assassination which have only been proven false over these past few years, which I think reveals an enormous amount of festering animosity and anger. All of which puts a bit of a pale on your claim to such prosperity and/or happiness.

I wish you luck in your new career Tech and I hope you can find a way to relieve yourself of all the anger its not good for your heart (at least that is what I hear)

 

[Vimes]

As a senior mechanic at a major non-unionized Express airline I have two choices with regard to my continued employment with this company. (1) I can work for the pay and benefits that they offer me (2) I can quit. If the seeming minority of pro-union mechanics at this Express airline are able to vote in a union my employment choices are still two but one of them is vastly different (1) I can quit or (2) I can work for what 50% +1 of my unions "brothers" will agree is fair. The company may make the work group an offer that I think is very fair and generous but if 50% +1 of my fellow mechanics do not agree I would not be able to accept the offer. If 50% +1 of my fellow mechanics decide to put their continued employment on the line for what they consider to be fair pay and benefits I would again be faced with two choices.(1) Walk out and jeopardize my future employment and my famly's financial future (2) Continue to work for what I consider to be fair wages and benefits. I have always made my own choices because I am the one who reaps the benefits and suffers the consequences of these choices and will continue to do so in the future.

JAMECH,

Certainly a raw and realistic view. Two things really struck me in what you said....

1st "The company may make the work group an offer that I think is very fair and generous but if 50% +1 of my fellow mechanics do not agree I would not be able to accept the offer. " and this is something they expect you to pay for, they (the union) EXPECTS you to pay them to have your ability to make your own choice taken away.

2nd "I have always made my own choices because I am the one who reaps the benefits and suffers the consequences of these choices and will continue to do so in the future." to me this is an excellent written example of self responsibility something that has become a rare commodity in this day and time.

Well said and Thank you very much