Union vs Non Union My Response

[Dignity]

Dignity,

My ideas and thoughts and opinions are my own. Yes I do look at both sides of every issue to the best of my ability, to do otherwise would be narrow minded.

just so we are clear, my comments quoted were basically thoughts that came to mind after reading 777Fixer post, and was a general comment basically directed at no one in particular...

now..

Dignity,
In reference to flight attendants: (This is just my honest opinion)

Flight attendants have been sold to the general public as flying waitresses.

probably the same group of people who were alleged referring to us as "vending machines" really dont help counter these ideas! (I dont think there is anything wrong with being waitresses either, at least they can keep their tips!)

The flight attendants as a whole have not countered this effort effectively AND THEY MUST.

:blink:

I do not see flight attendants as flying waitresses I see them as safety professionals who are simply diverse enough to be able to offer very valuable additional inflight services to the customers.

thank you for that comment.

Here again the flight attendants unions have failed their membership miserably possibly to the future complete decimation of the profession.

after I was feeling warm and fuzzy about your previous comment you just went and tossed it all out the window after reading that one!!

You stated you do not feel you are paid enough, well I agree, but you will not be the pay will continue to decrease until flight attendants re-market themselves as a profession, therein gaining public respect and ending the flying waitress mentality.

I know I am not paid enough at this time.. because I believed in saving our airline and accepted concessions.

(the airline we worked hard at so many years, enabling the company to become a viable and attractive merger candidate)


if the general public doesn't get that, then I dont know what else to say!

It is not that Americans are overpaid its bigger than that. It is we, all of us, have allowed the globalization of our own work force in doing so we have consequences to face and to negate those consequences is simply wishful thinking.

if that is in reference to outsourcing, we have never actually allowed it, it seems to be an issue that is ongoing. (for the record I do not consider the Pacific region or Intra Asia flying outsourced because we have worked together as a team for decades, that is JMO)

We have to turn this around on many fronts in order to regain what America as a whole once had which was a genuine standard of living which companies could afford to provide their employees.

and a lot of that depends on who is running the company if a "genuine standard of living" continues, some at the top focus solely on their own interest and basically to heck with the rest..(that is the sad realization played out time and time again it seems)

to me, sometimes its a good idea to be part of the process, sitting across the table..so to speak, working together as a team..collectively putting minds, ideas and thoughts together and..then mutually agreeing..

As a country we produce virtually nothing now, we used to produce everything, as professionals from multiple professions within aviation we have allowed the degradation of our own professions all of these actions or lack of actions have consequences.

maybe it would be a good idea to start focusing on our priorities here at home.

You mentioned public perceptions well here are afew:
Pilots, they are just overpaid babysitters you know there is auto pilot they just push afew buttons
Flight Attendants, flying waitresses, sky ho's (sorry about that one I really hate that one)

I think they have been referred to as "glorified bus drivers"?? I find that shameful! because there is nothing wrong with driving a bus or flying a plane.. if someone is working and maintaining their employment regardless of what they do.. they should be congratulated for keeping a job helping contribute to their local economies due to spending and supporting their community! (lets try to keep our jobs at home so we can continue to support each other here!)

the other ones, yes I have heard that before and worse... in the past on a few very rare occasions, for the most part I do hear "Thank you", so I just try to focus on the positive and realize some people just say things they either do not mean, and if they do..all I can do is just feel sorry for them. (because there is something more going on in their personal lives to make them lash out at the world or call names in that manner.. to a Flight Attendant or anyone for that matter!)

anyway!



you know, we just see things differently.. but I do find your posts and comments interesting.

(and I also recognize, they are very well thought out)

 

[700UW]

Something smells rotten in Denmark, why is Vimes so anti-union when the A&Ps are all ready non-union now and there is no date set for the ramp to vote?

Seems like another company plant.

Guess he forgot people died in this country to have the right to join a union.

I wonder if you have any kids Vimes? If yuo do arent you glad unions got child labor laws passed?

Unions, the people tha brought you the 40 hour work week, vacations, medical insurance for workers, OSHA, overtime pay and much much more.

Guess he forgot about the days of master and servant.

 

[southwind]

So whats holding up the vote ? :blink:

Does Nobama not have his peeps in place yet?

 

[Dignity]

(cont.)

EVERY ONE OF THESE VIEWS (and more and worse) MUST BE CHANGED!!!!![/b] No one can do that but US. The unions sure as heck are not and have not done anything about it there by perpetuating it. It is in the airlines interest to see these public perceptions changed just as much as it is in our interest to see these perceptions changed, but right now with the way labor relations work their interest are split between keeping labor cost in line with trying to have the public view air travel as something more than just people hauling. Keeping cost in line will always win out because some shmuck media firm will convince the CEO's they can out media the non-professional public view. instead of actually putting in the work to bring everyone together to change it all at once for EVERYONES BENEFIT.

The Airline would benefit because people would be more willing to PAY for seats instead of the cattle haulers. Work groups would benefit because the company could not afford not to compensate their professionals and the stock holders would benefits because rev's would increase and not all would be spent on labor cost and stocks would rise because of the publics perception of the work groups as well as the public and the streets view of positive new innovative labor/management relations which would actually provide virtually immediate benefits for everyone concerned.

overall my impression of your post is simply, if you forfeit a union, people will change their minds regarding a person as an individual or group, and I do not necessarily...well, buy that.

these ideas of changing perceptions do not necessarily happen because of forfeiting a contract or representation. it appears you are focusing and placing too much emphasis on an actual cost rather than the personal responsibility the individual has and the resources they have available to change these ideas...themselves.

it is the way someone may present themselves to the public why some stereotypes either happen or never materialize in the first place.

when you had mentioned in the earlier post about these ideas being "sold" to the general public, I had made a comment basically in jest, with a hint of truth to it, but I fully understand it is the way, the individual conducts themselves as a professional that will either form an overall opinion. (some people will have pre-conceived notions either way and will not easily change, but I am speaking general terms)

to put it bluntly..

you are treated or make permanent impression based on..the image someone may project and how someone treats others.. (and I know how that may sound, however it is the truth)

(one of the most important aspects is to really show someone you genuinely will listen to their concerns and actually attempt to help them..regardless of the situation... that will always stand out more than anything )

This responsibility ultimately falls on the Flight Attendant as an individual. (and that has absolutely nothing to do with having a union or not)

if someone experiences good customer service yet continues to believe in stereotypes..well, they are probably spending too much time at the movies...

 

[groundcontrol]

Something smells rotten in Denmark, why is Vimes so anti-union when the A&Ps are all ready non-union now and there is no date set for the ramp to vote?

Seems like another company plant.

Guess he forgot people died in this country to have the right to join a union.

I wonder if you have any kids Vimes? If yuo do arent you glad unions got child labor laws passed?

Unions, the people tha brought you the 40 hour work week, vacations, medical insurance for workers, OSHA, overtime pay and much much more.

Guess he forgot about the days of master and servant.

Yeah, it's funny how different posters come out of the closet and when.
So where did dapoes go, is vimes and dapoes a tag team. dapoes taking some time off?
Hmmm.

I personally will not post to vimes as I will not acknowledge strike breakers. I wouldn't even give one the time of day. :down:

 

[tech2101]

I personally will not post to vimes as I will not acknowledge strike breakers. I wouldn't even give one the time of day. :down:

Thank you. I will no longer feed this troll.

It seems to have no problem talking to itself.

 

[Delta Technician]

Thank you. I will no longer feed this troll.

It seems to have no problem talking to itself.

This reply is childish to say the least. You sound so educated.

 

[john john]

I personally will not post to vimes as I will not acknowledge strike breakers. I wouldn't even give one the time of day. :down:

YEP

 

[john john]

"They were going to eliminate virtually an entire workgroup"

Delta is in the process of getting rid of a whole work group the Customer Services Agent
of days gone by . Now DL has "ready reverse" agents.. Can someone explain how and why they exist?

 

[Vimes]

Did you just fall off of a turnip truck or what?
Do you remember the ENRON debacle? No union there but employees were screwed over.
Trust capitalistic markets, yea, how did that work out?
Free market? How did that 'solve' economics?
California power conglomerates turned over to 'free markets' and we all got the hose!
People will continue to get screwed, screw themselves, their families and future if they do not wake the F' Up!

Blame the 'employees' for trying to secure pay and benefits while the corporate raiders put us all in the poor house.
A 'PURE' capitalistic society will not succeed. There has to be a balance of capitalism and socialism and that is where the business ethics code came from. Where is the business ethics code today?
There used to be ROI calculations based on a 10-20 year ROI. What are the ROI calculations now? Try '30-90 days'!
Good, try to put out a multimillion product with an ROI of thirty days.
Good F'N luck.
Go out and get an SBA loan today and learn how 'impossible' it is.

You and a few 'others' here #### about an 'agenda'. Well, here's a clue for you, the 'agenda' is to make you believe that one party has all the answers and will protect your interests... The 'other' party does the same damn thing!


How's that working out?

B) xUT

UAL Tech,

You are attempting to compare apples to go carts.
Enron was a completely different situation the union status of the employees would have had no effect on the outcome of the situation. Enron's employees put all their 401k money into Enron and did not pay any attention to the balance sheets or the financial statements or they could not read and understand them. For those that could or did they never questioned. It was an accounting fraud not a lack of productive positive relations between upper management and employees. Actually Enron had fantastic employee relations.

Anytime you have capitalism in effect there has to be a measure of self responsibility, of course socialism frowns on self responsibility. If you can not understand a financial statement dont invest put your money in your mattress because the possibility exist you will get screwed, if you can understand a financial statement that possibility still exist but is much lesser. Self responsibility is not the easiest thing for some to face which is why there is some popularity to socialism.

You said "Blame the 'employees' for trying to secure pay and benefits while the corporate raiders put us all in the poor house." No absolutely not, but employees have to face the fact that this is not the 1800's anymore. Labor relations have to change in order to benefit everyone. The days of expecting the company to take care of itself and be profitable on its own and the employee simply goes to work does their job and goes home and never bothers to put any thought into the betterment of the company they work for are over. The days of my work group against your work group are over. The days of my union is going to negotiate for more more more just like every other union on the premises is going to negotiate for more more more are over. Just like the horse as the main mode of transportation is over, just like oil lamps for the main source of light used in the home is over just like the same old union methods and tactics are over just like the idea that management that doesn't want to work together with employees is over, it only depends on whether 'employees' can see the writing on the wall and are willing to attempt to make things better or if 'employees' are going to stick with what has proven to be quite costly and utterly ineffectual. Because as business people they understand upper management and front line employees have to come together to save American businesses to make them prosper and to try to return employment to America rather than watch it farmed out to 3rd world countries, to other work forces that largely do an inferior job.

Further you said "There has to be a balance of capitalism and socialism and that is where the business ethics code came from. Where is the business ethics code today?" From an economics point of view the combination of capitalism and socialism is exactly what created the business environment we are saddled with today. There is no reason on earth capitalism has to be to the detriment of any employee group, if they are smart enough to use it to they benefit.

You also said "You and a few 'others' here #### about an 'agenda'. Well, here's a clue for you, the 'agenda' is to make you believe that one party has all the answers and will protect your interests... The 'other' party does the same damn thing!
"
You are absolutely right, except that each political party is attempting to con the public in favor of their own agenda. If you think for one minute that the political parties do not have their own agendas then you are sadly mistaken. As for politicians a good rule of thumb is never listen to what they say look at what they have done and look at who they owe favors to look at who is giving them the most money you have to dig to find any truth behind politicians.

 

[Vimes]

I didn't agree to it. Did YOU?

B) xUT

No I did not agree to it, nor do I, but that does not change that our government has already done it. www.spp.gov I haven't checked the website recently but it is the government website for it.

 

[Vimes]

My GOD!

Do you even know #### From Shinola ?

I know this was directed at Southwind but since it was about me I am going to say something.
Your problem appears to be you can not distinguish between honesty and B.S., you have been listening to hypocritical profiteering union bosses too long.

 

[Vimes]

probably the same group of people who were alleged referring to us as "vending machines" really dont help counter these ideas! (I dont think there is anything wrong with being waitresses either, at least they can keep their tips!)

I agree I have nothing against waitresses, its a hard job, but there is a difference between a waitress and a safety professional at 30k feet in the air, but I do agree nothing against waitresses


QUOTE (Vimes @ Jun 18 2009, 04:47 AM) *
The flight attendants as a whole have not countered this effort effectively AND THEY MUST.
:blink:

Yep that is what I think, flight attendants have to change that perception because no one else is going to do it for them.

thank you for that comment.

Your welcome, but its the truth. The training and the ability to control large numbers are frightened and/or hysterical people and much more, wow my hats off to flight attendants.


QUOTE (Vimes @ Jun 18 2009, 04:47 AM) *
Here again the flight attendants unions have failed their membership miserably possibly to the future complete decimation of the profession.

after I was feeling warm and fuzzy about your previous comment you just went and tossed it all out the window after reading that one!!

Well, yes its true. What effectual things have you seen the flight attendants unions do to improve the publics perception of flight attendants? I do not think the publics perceptions have changed recently and the longer they dont change the easier it is to sell the idea of replacing flight attendants. Flight attendants like every other work group must have the public on its side, further it is only to the companies benefit as a whole to have its front line employees viewed in a very highly professional manner. It is part of changing the perception of air travel a sort of taking it back from cattle hauling to a luxurious experience or at least some what luxurious experience.


I know I am not paid enough at this time.. because I believed in saving our airline and accepted concessions.



(the airline we worked hard at so many years, enabling the company to become a viable and attractive merger candidate)


if the general public doesn't get that, then I dont know what else to say!

Dignity, you are an intelligent person but I think that causes you to over estimate the general public.


if that is in reference to outsourcing, we have never actually allowed it, it seems to be an issue that is ongoing. (for the record I do not consider the Pacific region or Intra Asia flying outsourced because we have worked together as a team for decades, that is JMO)

No, that was not directed at any particular work group it was the American work force in general.

and a lot of that depends on who is running the company if a "genuine standard of living" continues, some at the top focus solely on their own interest and basically to heck with the rest..(that is the sad realization played out time and time again it seems)

to me, sometimes its a good idea to be part of the process, sitting across the table..so to speak, working together as a team..collectively putting minds, ideas and thoughts together and..then mutually agreeing..


True very true, but I think that is part and parcel of the us against them mentality that has been perpetuated instead of an all for all of us approach. I completely agree with you when you said "to me, sometimes its a good idea to be part of the process, sitting across the table..so to speak, working together as a team..collectively putting minds, ideas and thoughts together and..then mutually agreeing..",.....BUT there is no mutually when exclusions exist, there is no team when the team is completely divided. The approach I agree with but it needs to be greatly expounded upon for a whole new approach that encompasses what you said and so much more.


maybe it would be a good idea to start focusing on our priorities here at home.

Past time I would say


I think they have been referred to as "glorified bus drivers"?? I find that shameful! because there is nothing wrong with driving a bus or flying a plane.. if someone is working and maintaining their employment regardless of what they do.. they should be congratulated for keeping a job helping contribute to their local economies due to spending and supporting their community! (lets try to keep our jobs at home so we can continue to support each other here!)

Bravo and well said. We always told our kids, it doesn't matter what job you do just as long as you do it well because every job matters.

the other ones, yes I have heard that before and worse... in the past on a few very rare occasions, for the most part I do hear "Thank you", so I just try to focus on the positive and realize some people just say things they either do not mean, and if they do..all I can do is just feel sorry for them. (because there is something more going on in their personal lives to make them lash out at the world or call names in that manner.. to a Flight Attendant or anyone for that matter!)

anyway!

Very true, but I still think its paramount for flight attendants to change the publics perception of the profession. Hold on to those Please and Thank You's we all deserve more of them

you know, we just see things differently.. but I do find your posts and comments interesting.


(and I also recognize, they are very well thought out)

Thank you very much, I enjoy your post as well and your willingness to actually discuss things. I do not think we disagree as much as you may think.

 

[Vimes]

Something smells rotten in Denmark, why is Vimes so anti-union when the A&Ps are all ready non-union now and there is no date set for the ramp to vote?

Seems like another company plant.

Guess he forgot people died in this country to have the right to join a union.

I wonder if you have any kids Vimes? If yuo do arent you glad unions got child labor laws passed?

Unions, the people tha brought you the 40 hour work week, vacations, medical insurance for workers, OSHA, overtime pay and much much more.

Guess he forgot about the days of master and servant.

700UW,

I do not know what "smells in Denmark" although I am aware they are having some political issues. Yes I am a mechanic but that means I am an employee of NWA/DELTA, soon to be just Delta, and I actually care about my fellow employees, our relations with upper management and the financial health of Delta Airlines.

I have not forgotten and am fairly well versed in the history of unions and the accomplishments of ages gone by. I am also aware of what I perceive as hypocrisy's perpetrated against the members of unions speaking in reference to more recent years and I do not think that is fair, just or right.

I could not help but notice that while I referenced recent union "accomplishments" you reference accomplishments of the Victorian age, which goes along way in verifying exactly what I have been saying that unions as the labor movement have done nothing but stagnate at the expense of the American worker.

 

[Vimes]

(cont.)



overall my impression of your post is simply, if you forfeit a union, people will change their minds regarding a person as an individual or group, and I do not necessarily...well, buy that.

these ideas of changing perceptions do not necessarily happen because of forfeiting a contract or representation. it appears you are focusing and placing too much emphasis on an actual cost rather than the personal responsibility the individual has and the resources they have available to change these ideas...themselves.

it is the way someone may present themselves to the public why some stereotypes either happen or never materialize in the first place.

when you had mentioned in the earlier post about these ideas being "sold" to the general public, I had made a comment basically in jest, with a hint of truth to it, but I fully understand it is the way, the individual conducts themselves as a professional that will either form an overall opinion. (some people will have pre-conceived notions either way and will not easily change, but I am speaking general terms)

to put it bluntly..

you are treated or make permanent impression based on..the image someone may project and how someone treats others.. (and I know how that may sound, however it is the truth)

(one of the most important aspects is to really show someone you genuinely will listen to their concerns and actually attempt to help them..regardless of the situation... that will always stand out more than anything )

This responsibility ultimately falls on the Flight Attendant as an individual. (and that has absolutely nothing to do with having a union or not)

if someone experiences good customer service yet continues to believe in stereotypes..well, they are probably spending too much time at the movies...

When the public actually encounters a flight attendant their preconceived notions are either then questioned or re-inforced or changed; however its the preconceived notions that need changed. The actual interaction with the flight attendant is the reinforcement not the onset of, which is why it is a preconceived notion or idea.

I do think it has an enormous amount to do with union representation. The unions regardless of which one or which work group are supposed to be representing a particular work group and how that work group is viewed by the general public is of enormous portent, but has largely (other than the pilots to a small degree) been ignored. It is an awfully daunting task to expect flight attendants to change an entire publics perception individually because individually they can not they can only change them or reinforce them one person at a time; however that is not the same power the unions have had and chosen not to use. Lest we not forget there is POWER in perceptions.

Your comment about the "movies" is interesting because that is part of how people are sold on ideas or attitudes or perceptions, so you are aware that the public has been sold (so to speak) a perception. Why should it not be countered and corrected? Why would that not be of a benefit to flight attendants everywhere?
For Example (not my example this is something my friend discussed one night)
Imagine you have a family which is going to take a flight to visit grandma in Arizona or something. Its a mother, father and 2 kids. Mom is on the computer looking at the flights. One airline is 50.00 cheaper than the other per ticket, but there is something nagging at mom as she is looking at the flights. She remembers a video or commercial she has seen. One of the airlines flight attendants where in that video or commercial and it showed the flight attendants helping people including a small child in an emergency and taking care of everyone and seeing to their safety. It tugged at her heart strings which is why she remembers it, and said something about safety professionals. Ummm which airline does she chose? What is her perception of flight attendants? There is more but that is just the gist of what I remember my friend saying, we were talking a lot about media and perceptions that night.

I would like you to know I have an enormous amount of respect for your sense of self responsibility especially as an aviation professional.