Union vs Non Union My Response

[700UW]

Funny how vimes, aka picket line crosser, Jack London wrote a nice poem about people like you, refers to union leaders as bosses, funny every union I have been in I have always been able to vote in a democratic election to elect my union leader, cant say the same about any CEO, Executive, Manager or Supervisor I have worked for.

Keep trying, we all see through your hidden agenda, and you can spew as much anti-union venom you want, you wont change anyone's mind on how they chose to be union or non-union.

 

[southwind]

And neither will you !

 

[700UW]

The differance is you and vimes are trying to influence who people will vote, I am not.

 

[Vimes]

Funny how vimes, aka picket line crosser, Jack London wrote a nice poem about people like you, refers to union leaders as bosses, funny every union I have been in I have always been able to vote in a democratic election to elect my union leader, cant say the same about any CEO, Executive, Manager or Supervisor I have worked for.

Keep trying, we all see through your hidden agenda, and you can spew as much anti-union venom you want, you wont change anyone's mind on how they chose to be union or non-union.

700UW,

First of all I challenge you to actually READ what I have written. I do not believe I have ever said anyone should vote for or against anyone or anything, but I believe I have attempted to open discussion in reference to actual possibilities, other options, possibilities to move all the work groups into one big work group and work towards an agreed upon goal for everyone where in everyone (company included) benefits. I have pointed out that the union bosses have not given in pay or bennies when the membership has had to. I have pointed out how the unions have not done anything of substance to improve the view the public has of you or your profession or your industry. What began as altruistic organizations turned into nothing more than pandering ponzi schemes, the working guy pays and pays and the big bosses hob knob with the mucky muck politicians and brag about the control they have over their membership and never ever give up a dime all the while telling the membership they are getting screwed but have to give concessions. The original altruism of the entire premise of unions has been lost it has been gone since before Hoffa, who by the way had more than minor mob ties hence the paying of protection money and the term the union will protect you.

Now, having said that just so you are aware IT WAS NOT THE UNION OR ANY UNION THAT IS OR WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE 40 HOUR WORK WEEK? It was Henry Ford HE, acting on his own as a CEO instituted the 40 hour work week along with a standard of higher pay along with equal opportunity employment. It was basically a CEO that did it a union did not. (No I am not saying Henry Ford was a great guy or even a great employer he was however groundbreaking in many ways and credit where credit is due) Another thing, Jack London wrote that poem in the 1800's approx 150 years ago. Do you not have anything of substance from more recent history?? I have discussed recent history, yet you seem to be stuck in the late 1800's and early 1900's. I think it would be more pertinent to move into the 1970's at least.

I have not now nor will I attempt to tell anyone how to vote or to vote for or against anything in reference to unions. I have suggested it might be time to look at things a new way. After all we are living in interesting times, so to speak, economically and politically. Delta employees have so much power to turn a tide in part simply because of sheer size in part because this is the largest merger in history and it could possibly be historical in many more ways than some people are thinking. No Delta employees are not the only group that has this type of opportunity but it is unique to Delta for many reasons. One of which is Delta has opened a door its the front line employees that have to decide to go through the door or throw the door wide open and change it and make it bigger and better so everyone goes through, figuratively speaking.

 

[Vimes]

The differance is you and vimes are trying to influence who people will vote, I am not.

700UW

If by "influence" you mean encourage people to think about things in a different way, in a way that doesnt hijack their paychecks or pit labor against upper management and the very company that employs them, in a way that doesnt create and foster an adversarial labor relations environment then fine.....guilty. If by "influence" you mean tell people how to think and what to think...not guilty...that has historically been the various unions job.

 

[700UW]

Your wrong when UA and US took concessions the IAM reps from the district took the same cuts.

 

[Vimes]

Your wrong when UA and US took concessions the IAM reps from the district took the same cuts.

700UW,

Here is some brief info on the IAM, but there is so so so much more.

International Association of Machinists (IAM) District 751 president, Wroblewski"How can we
change the way we've negotiated in the past, so we can break this cycle of striking" is how he characterizes
the focus of early conversations with Doug Kight, Boeing's top labor negotiator. "Because we can't carry on this way."

August 2008 Wroblewski failed in his attempt because he did not have the knowledge the numbers or the support to do it alone. I do not know
if he even had a plan, it sounded more like he was just winging it.


R. Thomas Buffenbarger IAM International President"summer 2008, International President R. Thomas Buffenbarger made the statement, “I emphasize the word democratic because very few unions actually give their members a chance to set the direction of their union for decades to come."

Buffenbarger is nothing but a ladder climber and he is out for himself just as much as every CEO out there and certainly no less. He worked at GE until he
was elected at 20 years old and then started up the union management ladder.

LOCAL REPS mirrored the cuts, poor shmucks what about Buffenbarger?How many cuts has he taken? What is his income INCLUDING book sales
and board seats INCLUDING his tight ties with the AFL-CIO and their board as I believe he is or was sitting on the BOD (board of directors)

This quote is from a IAM & AW members website"People have BROKEN INTO OUR HOUSE to steal what is rightfully
belongs to every member of the IAM&AW. Will you choose to sleep as they are stealing YOUR RIGHTS, YOUR DUES for SERVICES of
DEMOCRACY NOT RENDERED? Or will you WAKE UP CHARGED and fight for ALL your rights as a member of the IAM&AW?" http://www.faquorum.com/

What the hell!!!! IAM members have to fight their own union??? Geez, yes I think
there is a better way.

Union Members sue their own union (the IAM)
http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeal...201/517/642757/

NYTimes 2003 or 2004
The Labor Department said that the new regulations, released after it received more than 35,000 public comments, were needed because the
old rules did not require enough disclosure. In defending the rules, department officials noted that this was the first major effort to update the rules in 44 years.

"The current financial disclosure forms that unions file provide little of value to rank-and-file members about their union's finances and
operations, and they have failed as an effective deterrent against financial misconduct," said Elaine L. Chao, the secretary of labor.
"Too many workers are being hurt by the wrongdoing of a few."

Under the new rules — which require more disclosure than the old rules — local, regional and national unions with annual income of $250,000 or
more must report expenditures of $5,000 or more. Unions will also be required to detail how much they spend on political activities and
lobbying, on union administration and on strike benefits.

In its executive summary, the Labor Department said: "More transparency and disclosure are needed. While most union leaders
are people of integrity, there are still bad apples. In fact, over the past five years, convictions for union corruption have
averaged 11 per month."

 

[2BlacknBlue]

This is just what the doctor ordered....a scab lecture. :down:

Is anyone reading this $#1t?

 

[john john]

700UW,

Now, having said that just so you are aware IT WAS NOT THE UNION OR ANY UNION THAT IS OR WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE 40 HOUR WORK WEEK?

And Delta is RESPONSIBLE for leading the airline industry to “ready reserveâ€￾ agents
Pay, Benefits, Hours, Job, are at DL determination.And please enlighten the board with what temporary employment is with no benefits/sick/vacations/pension/overtime/seniority/recall/workday-week etc.

 

[700UW]

And the IAM has over 350,000 Members, Transportation is only a part of it, so why would the IP take a cut when only a very small part of the membership take concessions?

And the membership sets the officers salaries at the International Level every four years.

Keep trying.

 

[Kev3188]

This is just what the doctor ordered....a scab lecture. :down:

Is anyone reading this $#1t?

Not this cat...

Frankly, I'm surprised people are still wading through the blather that Opus Vimes is trying to foist on everyone.

 

[Vimes]

And Delta is RESPONSIBLE for leading the airline industry to “ready reserveâ€￾ agents
Pay, Benefits, Hours, Job, are at DL determination.And please enlighten the board what temporary employment is with no benefits/sick/vacations/pension/overtime/seniority/recall/workday-week etc.

John John,

1st-There are people who actually want to work part time rather than full time. There are housewives/househusbands, people who need to supplement family income or have an additional income. So some part time openings are a good thing; HOWEVER

2nd- Delta is not "responsible" for the concept or its over use in corporate America today and its unfair to suggest that it is. You want to know who is responsible it you and its me and its anyone of us that has shopped and spent our hard earned money at that snake pit Walmart, THEY are the ones that institutionalized the concept of part-time aka ready reserve. Every time you or I or any American purchased imported goods rather than spent afew extra dollars on an American made product to support American industry and American workers, every time someone was too lazy to make 2 stops instead of one stop and chose Walmart, every one who is worried about their job in AMERICA should look in their driveway and see if they have been supporting American industry and no if the company that made your car made it here and then shipped the money to Japan or any other country that is NOT supporting American workers.

The concept of ready reserve aka part-time is a concept pioneered to revolting levels never before seen in America by Walmart. The current global economic situation, WHICH WE HAVE ALL CREATED, requires airlines and every other business including the mom and pop shops (the ones Walmart hasnt run out of business yet) to make major changes to their business models. This is one of Delta's solutions, for all I know it may be a short term solution or it may be an attempt to institute a full part-time brigade of CSA's, I do not know.

John John, you pay bills I assume. Imagine your sitting at your dinner table or your desk and your going through your bills. You have one check in front of you and a stack of bills. You write out all your checks and there is nothing left so you think something has to go, the bills are just too high, so maybe you cut back your cable to a smaller package or maybe you lessen your bandwidth on your internet or you cut back your air conditioning or your heat but something gets cut back because no person or family and no business can survive by spending every penny that comes in. So you as the bill payer make some hard choices. It is the same in business.

If you work at Delta take the initiative and find out what the cost are. Sit down with the numbers and look at it from an employees view from a new applicants view and from the companies view and the cost view and figure out a better way to do it. Write a proposal and submit it to EVERYONE you can find in management, believe it or not they do listen and they do pay attention to proposals but persistence never hurts when attempting to make big changes in things. One of my fellow mechanics put a lot of work into a proposal. He submitted it and one person tried to stop it, unfortunately there is still a negative contingent here in DTW, but he sent it to more than one person and there was discussion and his proposal has now been accepted and it will make drastic positive changes for some mechanics. YOU actually can change things.


You asked me to "enlighten the board what temporary employment is with no benefits/sick/vacations/pension/overtime/seniority/recall/workday-week etc."
Ummm, aircraft mechanics call it contracting, but I do not think I am being very 'enlightening'. I have worked that way for 10+ years I was a professional contractor. I paid for my own benefits, I took my vacation every year, but that is not a choice everyone would make, nor should have to make, nor would I care to see it the norm in America although that is rapidly approaching. Other examples for other professions would be odesk.com and getafreelancer.com those are computer, video, data entry kind of contractors there are contracting firms for virtually every field or industry.

One of the theories of quantum mechanics is that the quantum field is effected by emotion, don't be negative......find a better way, find a better solution that benefits everyone. If you haven't written a proposal before, and I doubt many of us have, reach out here or at work. There are some incredibly intelligent aviation professionals on these boards and I do not think anyone would not be willing to help.

 

[john john]

John John,

1st-There are people who actually want to work part time rather than full time. There are housewives/househusbands, people who need to supplement family income or have an additional income. So some part time openings are a good thing; HOWEVER

2nd- Delta is not "responsible" for the concept or its over use in corporate America today and its unfair to suggest that it is. You want to know who is responsible it you and its me and its anyone of us that has shopped and spent our hard earned money at that snake pit Walmart, THEY are the ones that institutionalized the concept of part-time aka ready reserve.
The concept of ready reserve aka part-time is a concept pioneered to revolting levels never before seen in America by Walmart. This is one of Delta's solutions, for all I know it may be a short term solution or it may be an attempt to institute a full part-time brigade of CSA's, I do not know.

Sit down with the numbers and look at it from an employees view from a new applicants view and from the companies view and the cost view and figure out a better way to do it. Write a proposal and submit it to EVERYONE you can find in management, believe it or not they do listen and they do pay attention to proposals but persistence never hurts when attempting to make big changes in things. One of my fellow mechanics put a lot of work into a proposal. He submitted it and one person tried to stop it,

You asked me to "enlighten the board what temporary employment is with no benefits/sick/vacations/pension/overtime/seniority/recall/workday-week etc."
, don't be negative......find a better way, find a better solution that benefits everyone. If you haven't written a proposal before, and I doubt many of us have, reach out here or at work. There are some incredibly intelligent aviation professionals on these boards and I do not think anyone would not be willing to help.

I’ll some up with truth all union part timers in the airline industry enjoy a voice and negotiated benefits

 

[Vimes]

I’ll some up without utterance all union part timers in the airline industry enjoy a voice and negotiated benefits

Some = Group of; together with
Sum = To Add
"Without Utterance" - to remain silent......yet you continued on

I approached you as a reasonable person whom I presumed cared about the airline they work for, my bad. Therefore:

You pay a union out of part-time income? How many jobs have they "protected"? What are the number of employed compared to 15 years ago? What is your IP's net worth by percentage of single union income? Wheres the money coming from? Where are the dues going? Why are fellow aviation professionals suing their own unions? Why are you paying someone else to set the tone of discussions with upper management? Why are you bound by the choices of others? Are you incapable of free thought and free will? Are you incapable of speaking for yourself? Are you able to conceive of the possibility of actually working mutually with upper management for what is fair and reasonable for everyone? Are you capable of envisioning that you are on the same level as all other employees, upper management included and that everyone could possibly come together in a non adversarial manner and actually accomplish things for everyone's benefit?
Or,
Can you only conceive of telling the airline "F**k You we do not even want to talk to you we have nothing to say to you"?
Can you only conceive of the mentality that its your work group against upper management and the other work groups negotiations?

Look around, you do not make the airplanes fly all by your little lonesome, you do not take care of the passengers all by your little self, you do not maintain the aircraft as some mighty mechanic of one. You are part of something far bigger. Much bigger than that little clique you pay for the privileged (ummm) to belong to, or are you just paying for the constant lip service about how down trodden you are by evil wicked management? Or maybe you are paying for the mantra about 'you wont have a voice in the airline without the union to give it to you'?

 

[Vimes]

And the IAM has over 350,000 Members, Transportation is only a part of it, so why would the IP take a cut when only a very small part of the membership take concessions?

#1 NOT a "very small part of the membership" has taken concessions, virtually every branch and representation of the IAM has agreed to more out sourcing, more contract labor and more layoffs.
#2 Is is against the very principle of the socialism unions represent for the IP to be so much better than the members that pay him/her. They take concessions then the sh** is supposed to roll uphill in a union. I suggest you look closely it is not and has not been rolling up hill, the up hill in the unions have remained unaffected and more than adequately compensated as they sat by and watched the members have to walk out the door, all the while doing zilch about it other than whining.


And the membership sets the officers salaries at the International Level every four years.

#1 You think salary is the whole banana? You might look into other income as well and dont forget the multiple expense reports to multiple entities.
#2 The IAM is top heavy with administration/officers and their minions and there is some very vocal members who are very angry about the upper union managements compensation. I suggest you delve a little deeper into this subject.


Keep trying.

Believe it or not these two words really say a lot and cause pause. If I came into these boards and said I represent the Union of American Employees people would be willing to at least contemplate what I am trying to say, but it seems like because I am just a NWA/DELTA employee not a manager not a shop steward just a mechanic a guy who turns a wrench and goes home to his family and I am not representing a "union" people are closed to any prospects for open honest discussion, save a couple of course.