I'm not sure what you are referring to so I can not respond. I'm sorry Frank. I support Jim because of his leadership, not because of any educational background. The educational backgrounds I am concerned with though, are some of maanagements. Cracker Jacks degrees.
TWU vs. AMP Debate Comments
- Thread starter Ralph
- Start date
I'm not sure what you are referring to so I can not respond. I'm sorry Frank. I support Jim because of his leadership, not because of any educational background. The educational backgrounds I am concerned with though, are some of maanagements. Cracker Jacks degrees.
Just agreeing with Frank
Frank Szabo
Veteran
"An Injustice to One is an Injustice to ALL"
Does anyone but me remember that slogan being tossed around some time ago?
Methinks we were supposed to have forgotten about it by now and jumped on the latest T-shirt bandwagon - something referring to negotiations, I think. Unfortunately, it appears now that none of that actually occurred.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall the next time the union/company speaks with the mediator. I'll bet he'll want to know how the TWU/AA could miss what its people were saying so loudly leading up to the vote on the TA.
I believe the world of AA/TWU is about to become a rather interesting place for a while. A drive to install a new union, the TWU about to lose $250k per month income if that happens, and the corporate officer/beancounters/cpas in charge wondering what the hell just happened after they were assured otherwise.
Ain't it grand??
Frank Szabo
Veteran
There's plenty of others around that remember the stuff we were fed some years ago and how it all slowly disappeared.
Real leadership needn't resort to embellishment of facts to lead - plain and simple.
Me thinks there be a tad of blarney being spread about. Ask your negotiating committee member that you elected into office to inform you on what goes on the next time the union and company meet to speak to the mediator. If you did not vote for that representative then you did not actively campaign ( or enough) for your choice of candidates to win. Ask your representative. That is what he/she is there to do. Inform you.
Frank Szabo
Veteran
Two of the negotiating committee present told me they were forbidden to address the company directly by the head slug.
I have been "informed" re: the goings on in the "negotiating" sessions by individuals who were there - unfortunately for your favorite union, said information was not to its benefit - it wasn't spun.
Anything else?
Did your committee members say that they were to have one lead presenter? Did they agree to how presentations were to be made? Because we all know that if the committee agreed to release information only when it was complete and true, no one in that committee would leak invalidated information. Half truths are better to spin that the whole truth. Informed?
Frank Szabo
Veteran
Off subject and 'round the barn, as expected.
Now - a question for the debating duo I've not seen addressed yet:
How would the status of the "Working Together Initiative" change, if at all, under AMP or the TWU respectively?
I would say under AMP it would be put to a vote of the membership and what ever they decide that's what we will do. I suspect I know what that will be but wiil see.
TWU informer
Veteran
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It is now quite obvious that CIO has no ability to defend the TWU, the TWU Constitution, or show any proof what so ever that the TWU does not deserve a membership revolution to replace the pathetic record post deregulation. All CIO has is attack, attack, and fear. Well if all this debate is about is attack your opposition then I will oblige.
CIO claims local autonomy and local funds are important to settling grievances, and being involved in the community to garner community support. Yet TWU Local 514 currently has millions in the bank and a backlog of 1100+ grievances that are unsettled. The company outsourced CFM-56 Engine work for 100% overhaul and to date those millions have done nothing to correct this injustice to hundreds of dues paying members of Local 514.
CIO also believes that a Union can obtain community support with millions in the bank and being in involved in community affairs. Interesting enough there is a Local Tulsa news story regarding the recent rejection of the Tentative Agreement and currenlty has over 100 community comments and most are not only anti-TWU but actually completely anti-union.
Here are just a few of the comments that the community has left for the TWU on the Local News website about the failed tentative agreement.
To be fair, there are also some employees on the website attempting to defend what has taken place, but the majority of the post coming from the local community residents indicate that CIO’s belief that having millions in the bank, and using those funds for community involvement do absolutely nothing to help the union. Do these comments read as though the CIO's and TWU's community involvement policy is a success?
CIO attacks AMP for wanting professional negotiators yet the TWU Mechanic and Related just returned a Tentative Agreement that the membership overwhelmingly rejected. Well if not professional help then at least get these negotiators some form of help so that they do not continue to embarrass the profession by showing how weak and inadequate they really are. There is no way any sane person could claim the TWU has the market share of union success and listening to someone from a failing Consitution and Policies that refuses to defend those is not really a plan I am interested in entertaining anymore.
CIO claims there is Union strength in belonging to the AFL-CIO, Local Labor Councils, and involvement in political elections. This actually equates to nothing more than a financial windfall in the form of steady cash for the Democrat Political Party. In Tulsa, Oklahoma the demographics show that a majority of those in the community that are registered to vote are Republican and a very large number of the membership at large of the TWU are registered Republicans. These same policies that CIO is braggin about only alienate the membership from the union and it also infuriates those in the community that oppose much of the agenda adopted by the Democrats. This not only weakens the union by alienation of members needed for strength, but also circumvents in the community any goodwill done between election cycles. So what we really observe is a weaker union and weaker community support due directly to the policies that CIO claims make for a “better” union.
He claims to have friends in high places of the APA, he claims to personally know mediators that visit with him, and he claims to have APA documentation that reaches out to the TWU which he attempts to have us believe means that the TWU policies are superior to those that would be implemented upon AMP certification. What he fails to acknowledge while twisting his views and statements into a crack pipe dream is that both the APA and APFA could simply start card drives to seek AFL-CIO affiliated representation if they actually believed they were isolated from the rest of labor and therefore suffering in their own representation. Reaching out to form coalitions amongst unions on the property is as common as leaves on the trees and does not mean that the members of these in-house unions are failing or in any way not happy with their current union. In fact, it is only the TWU on American Airlines’ property that is facing a revolution seeking change by the respective union membership. This begs the question "Which Union Policy if Failing"?
CIO keeps harping that the structure, the negotiating procedures, and the elections of officers within the APA are not best for the mechanic and related group. And he uses the fact that this has not been tried before as his reason. Everyone knows that the mechanic groups throughout the industry have been in tough negotiating circumstances since deregulation. Let’s face it the TWU has guided the profession in reverse as it pertains to pay, benefits, and work rule concessions. If every person that patented a successful invention took the position that since it hasn’t been tried it will not work, we would still be riding horse drawn buggies, and Orville and Wilbur wouldn’t even be known today. The Aircraft we work on today are superior in many ways to those of the past because engineers tried ideas never tried before. CIO wants to maintain status quo and that is his prerogative, if you want more of the same then feel free to agree with him. If you wish to advance then the status quo cannot be acceptable. To use fear and twisting of facts is more of the same. In fact most members realize that fear and twisting of facts is really an expected company tactic not one that a union should be using to defend themselves in the face of opposition. The reason this is the only strategy available to the TWU Supporter, is it this same strategy that is used in their negative political campaign strategies and it is really all they know and all they have ever been taught. Reject this fear and seek the facts. Those TWU strategies have led to failing politicians and failing union leaders and something has to change and that is up to each of us. We owe to ourselves, our familes, and future generations to at least refuse to submit to fear and lies.
CIO claims local autonomy and local funds are important to settling grievances, and being involved in the community to garner community support. Yet TWU Local 514 currently has millions in the bank and a backlog of 1100+ grievances that are unsettled. The company outsourced CFM-56 Engine work for 100% overhaul and to date those millions have done nothing to correct this injustice to hundreds of dues paying members of Local 514.
CIO also believes that a Union can obtain community support with millions in the bank and being in involved in community affairs. Interesting enough there is a Local Tulsa news story regarding the recent rejection of the Tentative Agreement and currenlty has over 100 community comments and most are not only anti-TWU but actually completely anti-union.
Here are just a few of the comments that the community has left for the TWU on the Local News website about the failed tentative agreement.
To be fair, there are also some employees on the website attempting to defend what has taken place, but the majority of the post coming from the local community residents indicate that CIO’s belief that having millions in the bank, and using those funds for community involvement do absolutely nothing to help the union. Do these comments read as though the CIO's and TWU's community involvement policy is a success?
CIO attacks AMP for wanting professional negotiators yet the TWU Mechanic and Related just returned a Tentative Agreement that the membership overwhelmingly rejected. Well if not professional help then at least get these negotiators some form of help so that they do not continue to embarrass the profession by showing how weak and inadequate they really are. There is no way any sane person could claim the TWU has the market share of union success and listening to someone from a failing Consitution and Policies that refuses to defend those is not really a plan I am interested in entertaining anymore.
CIO claims there is Union strength in belonging to the AFL-CIO, Local Labor Councils, and involvement in political elections. This actually equates to nothing more than a financial windfall in the form of steady cash for the Democrat Political Party. In Tulsa, Oklahoma the demographics show that a majority of those in the community that are registered to vote are Republican and a very large number of the membership at large of the TWU are registered Republicans. These same policies that CIO is braggin about only alienate the membership from the union and it also infuriates those in the community that oppose much of the agenda adopted by the Democrats. This not only weakens the union by alienation of members needed for strength, but also circumvents in the community any goodwill done between election cycles. So what we really observe is a weaker union and weaker community support due directly to the policies that CIO claims make for a “better” union.
He claims to have friends in high places of the APA, he claims to personally know mediators that visit with him, and he claims to have APA documentation that reaches out to the TWU which he attempts to have us believe means that the TWU policies are superior to those that would be implemented upon AMP certification. What he fails to acknowledge while twisting his views and statements into a crack pipe dream is that both the APA and APFA could simply start card drives to seek AFL-CIO affiliated representation if they actually believed they were isolated from the rest of labor and therefore suffering in their own representation. Reaching out to form coalitions amongst unions on the property is as common as leaves on the trees and does not mean that the members of these in-house unions are failing or in any way not happy with their current union. In fact, it is only the TWU on American Airlines’ property that is facing a revolution seeking change by the respective union membership. This begs the question "Which Union Policy if Failing"?
CIO keeps harping that the structure, the negotiating procedures, and the elections of officers within the APA are not best for the mechanic and related group. And he uses the fact that this has not been tried before as his reason. Everyone knows that the mechanic groups throughout the industry have been in tough negotiating circumstances since deregulation. Let’s face it the TWU has guided the profession in reverse as it pertains to pay, benefits, and work rule concessions. If every person that patented a successful invention took the position that since it hasn’t been tried it will not work, we would still be riding horse drawn buggies, and Orville and Wilbur wouldn’t even be known today. The Aircraft we work on today are superior in many ways to those of the past because engineers tried ideas never tried before. CIO wants to maintain status quo and that is his prerogative, if you want more of the same then feel free to agree with him. If you wish to advance then the status quo cannot be acceptable. To use fear and twisting of facts is more of the same. In fact most members realize that fear and twisting of facts is really an expected company tactic not one that a union should be using to defend themselves in the face of opposition. The reason this is the only strategy available to the TWU Supporter, is it this same strategy that is used in their negative political campaign strategies and it is really all they know and all they have ever been taught. Reject this fear and seek the facts. Those TWU strategies have led to failing politicians and failing union leaders and something has to change and that is up to each of us. We owe to ourselves, our familes, and future generations to at least refuse to submit to fear and lies.
TWU Informer post #115 says it all. I read it all word for word and what an education it was. Thanks for taking the time to do all the research and posting it here for us to read. Maybe CIO will learn from this and try to stay on course with the debate. I hope so because I am getting tired of his dodging the challenge and trying to side step the intent of the debate.
Sorry I tried to clean it up and bold my answers but I understand the problrm.
TWU informer
Veteran
- Nov 4, 2003
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