TWU vs. AMP Debate Comments

Republicans don't hate unions -- the concept of a community taking care of each other instead of the government/company doing it for you is probably more in line with traditional Republican values than not. We just think it should be voluntary, and not a forced redistribution of wealth... but I digress.

Republican politicians generally overtly hate unions, just read S-1327 for just one example. Sens McCain Lot and and I cant remember the other A-holes name basically wanted to remove risk from the shareholder and make union workers liable to ensure that shareholders (mostly large financial institutions) see an ROI.

Unfortunately, today's unions are pretty far removed from what I'd consider traditional union values, and seem more interested in dues and politics than they are in being responsive or accountable to the membership.

In many cases thats true. Many union leaders today have no concept of union history either and obtained their positions by sucking up to other union leaders instead of getting real gains for their coworkers. They lose perspective because they are paid and treated more like executives than workers. They are in it for the money and really have no faith in the cause or the movement, its just the best six figure job they could get with their limited education, you can spot them easily, they are the leaders who blame the members for Labors decline. In fact the members simply followed the direction of their leaders who cut deals with the Bosses to make sure that there were little to no disruptions as the Great Transfer of Wealth that took place from 1930 to 1970 was reversed. What was most refreshing about the recent TA rejection is the fact that the membership refused to continue on the path of decline and sent back a resounding NO to more concessions. That rejection along with the arrival of a possible grass roots alternative has no doubt sent shock waves that go beyond the Union Hall and the Boardrooms of AMR.

The notion that only Democrats care about union workers is almost as ridiculous as the notion that only Democrats care about Hispanics.

Agreed, but Democrats are less hostile to unions and more desperate for the Hispanic vote. Because our leaders are toothless both parties treat Labor with contempt to one degree or another. Labor needs to form a Labor Party, big business owns the other two.

I suspect if you took a poll, you'd have around 35-40% Republicans amongst the unions at AA.

Funny how that number closely corresponds to the number of Yes voters, Robert Tressell wrote of these types of people at the turn of last century England, he called them 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists' in a book by the same name. I doubt that you ever read it.
 
Funny how that number closely corresponds to the number of Yes voters, Robert Tressell wrote of these types of people at the turn of last century England, he called them 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists' in a book by the same name. I doubt that you ever read it.


Really? Oh now it was the Republicans that caused yes votes? GTF outta here Bob. I voted YES and have no use for either Party of Politicians. My vote had noting to with National or Local Politics. And many of the YES voters in Tulsa are the TWU stooges who are lead with rings in their nose and voted the way the International and Early on the Local told them to vote. And most of them are diehard yellow dogs. You are always quick to blame someone else and make accusations without proof or merit, yet most of the yes voters I know think just like you as far as politics go. And most of them are not being held hostage by an oath of allegiance to the TWU while pretending that a difference might be made. This is why when it comes right down to it, I have little trust that you give a rats ass about overhaul and it's survival. If you hide your true feelings behind the TWU oath then what else do you hide?
 
Again, just another point of clarification. In his latest debate post CIO makes this statement:

""...No other carrier besides NWA was able to get away with calling the Iraq War a force majeure incident...""

As a point in fact UAL cited force majeure at the onset of the Iraq War and proceeeded to close two maintenance bases (OAK & IND)

http://lubbockonline.com/stories/032203/bus_0322030007.shtml


I have read the article mentioned by “Third Seat” and it actually confirms what I have said. NWA called the war a force majeure event and made the biggest layoffs. UAL made “temporary layoffs”, but the article did not say they invoked the force majeure!

In Solidarity
CIO
 
Really? Oh now it was the Republicans that caused yes votes? GTF outta here Bob. I voted YES and have no use for either Party of Politicians. My vote had noting to with National or Local Politics. And many of the YES voters in Tulsa are the TWU stooges who are lead with rings in their nose and voted the way the International and Early on the Local told them to vote. And most of them are diehard yellow dogs. You are always quick to blame someone else and make accusations without proof or merit, yet most of the yes voters I know think just like you as far as politics go. And most of them are not being held hostage by an oath of allegiance to the TWU while pretending that a difference might be made. This is why when it comes right down to it, I have little trust that you give a rats ass about overhaul and it's survival. If you hide your true feelings behind the TWU oath then what else do you hide?

Eoleson came up with that figure for his assumption of the Political persuation of our membership, I think he drew that conclusion from the vote.

Reread the post, then maybe look at the book (maybe you shouldnt as the Author was a Socialist).The characters that Tressell described as "Ragged Trousered Philanthropists" (to me the YES voters, people willing to give their labor to the rich for less than they should) were supporters of the Whigs and Liberals (equivelent of our Republicans and Democrats), they would debate endlessly which was better yet they had more in common with each other than those in either party. They toiled for and were exploited by both parties.

Anyone who voted YES doesnt think like me.
 
Eoleson came up with that figure for his assumption of the Political persuation of our membership, I think he drew that conclusion from the vote.

Reread the post, then maybe look at the book (maybe you shouldnt as the Author was a Socialist).The characters that Tressell described as "Ragged Trousered Philanthropists" (to me the YES voters, people willing to give their labor to the rich for less than they should) were supporters of the Whigs and Liberals (equivelent of our Republicans and Democrats), they would debate endlessly which was better yet they had more in common with each other than those in either party. They toiled for and were exploited by both parties.

Anyone who voted YES doesnt think like me.


AS Far AS Politcs Go they Do Think Like You Bob. Sorry but fact.
 
I have read the article mentioned by “Third Seat” and it actually confirms what I have said. NWA called the war a force majeure event and made the biggest layoffs. UAL made “temporary layoffs”, but the article did not say they invoked the force majeure!

In Solidarity
CIO

If you are truly that ignorant on what happened at UAL perhaps you shouldn't comment on it in absolutes.

UAL announced layoffs citing the Iraq War/force majeure.

The IAM sued UAL for their use of the force majeure provisions in court.

The IAM and UAL reached an out of court settlement, UAL closed IMC and OAK, the AMTS were allowed severance and to exercise seniority and bump in the system but the layoffs held. The Challenge to UALs use of force majeure was dropped.

Failure to admit to your obvious error does little to bolster your credibility in this debate.
 
If you are truly that ignorant on what happened at UAL perhaps you shouldn't comment on it in absolutes.

UAL announced layoffs citing the Iraq War/force majeure.

The IAM sued UAL for their use of the force majeure provisions in court.

The IAM and UAL reached an out of court settlement, UAL closed IMC and OAK, the AMTS were allowed severance and to exercise seniority and bump in the system but the layoffs held. The Challenge to UALs use of force majeure was dropped.

Failure to admit to your obvious error does little to bolster your credibility in this debate.

Third Seat Hero, facts don't really matter to some clowns. As long as he believes his own lies then facts are irrelevant. It is all about fear and lies to the TWU supporters. The Republican, AMFA, and AMP Boogie Men are in their dreams and nightmares.
 
If you are truly that ignorant on what happened at UAL perhaps you shouldn't comment on it in absolutes.

UAL announced layoffs citing the Iraq War/force majeure.

The IAM sued UAL for their use of the force majeure provisions in court.

The IAM and UAL reached an out of court settlement, UAL closed IMC and OAK, the AMTS were allowed severance and to exercise seniority and bump in the system but the layoffs held. The Challenge to UALs use of force majeure was dropped.

Failure to admit to your obvious error does little to bolster your credibility in this debate.


I still stand behind my statement, show me where it states UAL used the force majoure!

In Solidarity
CIO
 
CIO post # 26, he said......

"I see you only took part of qoutes and tried to distort the facts, The membership controls the TWU. More to come;"

OK I would like to know how does the membership control the TWU?

Did the membership approve of who is running the TWU International?
Did the membership approve the salaries and benefits of the International officers?
Does the membership have control of their contract?

The answer is NO, NO, NO to all three. Who would in there right mind allow this while the membership took financial concessions as well as loss of benefits? Surely not the TWU who is controlled by the membership.
 
AS Far AS Politcs Go they Do Think Like You Bob. Sorry but fact.
Who? The Yes voters, the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists? I voted No on our contract and recognize that both parties in our two party dictatorship are owned by corporations.

Although you seem to also feel disdain for both parties I dont know if we agree on whose interests they serve. I say rich corporations whose only moral guideline is the bottomline, who do you think they serve, other than themselves?

You seem hell bent on making this a Democrat vs Republican debate just like the charecters in the book.
 
Just my opinion by reading through the Debate thread, nothing is really being debated. So far, nothing there is helping me make up my mind to keep the TWU or vote in AMP. Almost seems to be a debate on comparing AMP to AMFA or who gets to keep the dues money. Please try to move on.

I do have a question though. With the TWU one can "quit" and pay agency fees in which the TWU is supposed to represent you if needed. Does AMP have the same thing? If so, I wonder how many die-hard TWU members would go this route.
 
I still stand behind my statement, show me where it states UAL used the force majoure!

In Solidarity
CIO

The numerous articles available via a simple web search, the numerous posts discussing the matter in the archives of this very site, yet you "stand" behind your statement.

UAL Mechanics

""...The union said the workers would have received no pay and would have lost the transfer rights under United's claim that "force majeuer," or unforeseeable, circumstances allowed the airline to place employees on limited "no work" status rather than traditional furlough status. ...""

As I mentioned earlier, failure to admit to your obvious error does little to bolster your credibility in this debate.
 
Just my opinion by reading through the Debate thread, nothing is really being debated. So far, nothing there is helping me make up my mind to keep the TWU or vote in AMP. Almost seems to be a debate on comparing AMP to AMFA or who gets to keep the dues money. Please try to move on.

I do have a question though. With the TWU one can "quit" and pay agency fees in which the TWU is supposed to represent you if needed. Does AMP have the same thing? If so, I wonder how many die-hard TWU members would go this route.

I am sorry the so called debate has turned into a AMFA = AMP show I really wish it was not I wiil try to get back on subject, as far as your question about agency fee AMP will have to abide by the law and any expense that is consider outside representaion or collective bargaining are exempt and you can not make members pay for it.
 
The numerous articles available via a simple web search, the numerous posts discussing the matter in the archives of this very site, yet you "stand" behind your statement.

UAL Mechanics

""...The union said the workers would have received no pay and would have lost the transfer rights under United's claim that "force majeuer," or unforeseeable, circumstances allowed the airline to place employees on limited "no work" status rather than traditional furlough status. ...""

As I mentioned earlier, failure to admit to your obvious error does little to bolster your credibility in this debate.




I stand corrected. Based, on your article (see below) a more accurate way of putting it would have been to say that United tried to invoke force majeure based on the Iraq War, but was prevented from doing so by litigation filed by the IAM.

IAM Wins Contract Rights for
Members in UAL Base Closing

District 141-M of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace
Workers (IAM) announced an agreement today with United Airlines to settle a
contract dispute over the airline’s decision to temporarily close its Indianapolis
Maintenance Center.

The settlement provides for severance pay as described in the current
contract, the opportunity to transfer to another United location and moving
expenses for employees choosing to do so. More than 1,400 IAM members at the
Indianapolis facility faced the loss of these rights under United’s claim that ‘force
majeuer’ circumstances allowed them to place employees on limited “No Work”
status rather than traditional furlough status.

“The war with Iraq can not be used as an excuse to deny established contract
rights,” said District 141-M President Scotty Ford. “Changes in the way United
operates may be needed, but those changes must come through negotiations and
ratified agreements, and not by unilateral decisions.”

On March 26, 2003, the IAM filed a motion in the United States District
Court for the Southern District of Indiana seeking a preliminary injunction against
United Airlines. The motion will be withdrawn due to this settlement.
“The strength of our Union made this settlement possible,” said Ford. “We
will continue to negotiate with United Airlines to help this airline survive while we
preserve the extremely important protections our agreement provides.”



In Solidarity
CIO
 
I stand corrected. Based, on your article (see below) a more accurate way of putting it would have been to say that United tried to invoke force majeure based on the Iraq War, but was prevented from doing so by litigation filed by the IAM.
In Solidarity
CIO
It appears you are still wrong, from what I've read here, even your article, UAL did invoke "Force majeure" and those workers did lose their jobs.

The disagreement was over how far the company could go with the force majeure, and whether or not they could disregard the contract completely by denying displaced workers severence and the ability to exercise their seniority.

The settlement provides for severance pay as described in the current
contract, the opportunity to transfer to another United location and moving
expenses for employees choosing to do so. More than 1,400 IAM members at the
Indianapolis facility faced the loss of these rights under United’s claim that ‘force
majeuer’ circumstances allowed them to place employees on limited “No Work”
status rather than traditional furlough status.

I think "Interested" is right, move on.
 

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