TWU vs. AMP Debate Comments

[MikeCobbAFW]

I would like to take a moment and recognize a few members of this forum for assisting in my collection of AMP cards. High Sp*** Steel, Dallas C*****ad, Kuk*y, and last but not least C*O. Your posts have been invaluable. I am really at a loss for words so I will just say, Thanks 🙂 Please keep up the posts, full speed ahead!

 

[Deleted member 17588]

I would like to take a moment and recognize a few members of this forum for assisting in my collection of AMP cards. High Sp*** Steel, Dallas C*****ad, Kuk*y, and last but not least C*O. Your posts have been invaluable. I am really at a loss for words so I will just say, Thanks 🙂 Please keep up the posts, full speed ahead!

LOL I just love good sarcasm. It's just about as pleasurable as sex.

 

[jimntx]

Well since you can't seem to get the point I will break iit down for you I knew that Patco was not a member of the AFL-CIO and I was wondering how long it was going to take one of you finally bring it up Now the point OVER LAST 30 YEARS THE AFL-CIO HAS FAILED TO STEP TO THE PLATE AND PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF THE WORKING MAN, ALL THE WHILE THEIR MEMBERSHIP HAS BEEN DROPPING LIKE A ROCK AND ALL THEY CAN DO IS BLAME LEGALTIES AND AFFILIATION ETC ETC FOR NOT DOING ANYTHING TO STOP THE DESTRUCTION OF UNIONISM.

Now when members seek change they are the problem ,not the institution that has been charged with the protection of unionism, You say you don't need a history lesson well I for one disagree.

In the words of Jack Nicholsen "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH"

Precisely. As I have said before, when I was growing up in Birmingham, Al in the 50's and the steel mills and the coal and iron mines were going hot and heavy, NO ONE crossed a picket line for any reason except a medical emergency. It didn't matter whether it was the journeymen ironworkers or the office janitors on strike. NO ONE CROSSED A PICKET LINE. Period. End of sentence. Full stop. That's what made the union movement strong.

Today, you can't even get pilots to honor a flight attendant strike and vice versa. They all get mealy mouthed and say "it's not legal for us to start a sympathy strike. They'll fine us." Not to put too fine a point on it, we allowed the companies to define not crossing a picket line as a sympathy strike. It's no such thing, but they now have legal precedent on their side.

The AFL-CIO became irrelevant the day they allowed one affiliated union's members to cross another union's picket whether that other union was an affiliate or not. If the organized labor movement is to succeed, it can not draw distinctions between unions that pay dues to us and those that don't.

 

[KUKUY]

kukuy,

"With that new union that has no established report with the company, experience of negotiating a contract, experience of arbitrating a case or has established coalitions between the other unions on the property, the position you assume is one of vulnerability and most of all weakness. That craft union mentality doesn’t work here at AA because we all rely so much on each other."

Report with the company? Oh, you mean the one like the twu has with the company?

Company: Hey twu. We need to remove A&Ps from the back shops. Oh, we also need you to accept life changing concessions to sAAve the company from filing bk. And while you're at it we don't want to give back or "snap-back" anything we take. Oh, and we will also drag our feet for 2 years while we pretend to "negotiate".

twu: No problem! We can't be voted out of office so we'll do what you want and just put a catchy slogan on it. How about "shAAred sAAcrifice"?

Company: That will work just fine.

No thanks kukuy.

Experience negotiating a contract? You mean like the way the twu does?

twu #1: Hey guys. How do we peddle this pos t/a?

twu #2: Hey! Let's put a flyer insert in all the ballots urging a yes vote?

twu #3: Hey! Great idea #2. Let's make it in color too!

No thanks kukuy.

Experience in arbitrating a case? You mean like the one in Tulsa regarding outsourcing engine work?

twu #1: Hey! What do we do with this grievance over the engine work being outsourced?

twu #2: SSHHH!!! Ignore it and it will go away.

No thanks kukuy.

Craft union mentality doesn't work here?

Thank you for insulting my profession.

No thanks kukuy.

Electing a strong negotiator should be on every members mind when those ballots are mailed to their homes. The negotiator you elected evidently was not strong enough to promote your prospective. File your charges or vote him/her out next election.

I elected my LOCAL negotiator and will indeed file a charge or vote him/her out next election. I will do the very same thing for all the international officers that were elected by the membership.

Oh, wait a second! You neglect to mention that international officers can not be voted out next election. So what's it going to be kukuy? Full democracy or just half democracy? A CRAFT union wants to know.

What in the informational flyer is not true? Be specific. “The decision is now in the membership’s hands” sounds like a persuasive push to ratify or is it to reject? Making the noise about international officer’s elections, you failed to mention what campaign strategy you employed to remove or elect new candidates. Was the reception from the transit and dealer locals open to your proposals? Are your charges on the recording secretary’s desk? All of the work classifications depend on each other so closely at AA and any other airline with our business model. Respect for the worker, from the day laborer to a doctor, must be on every union man’s/woman’s mind and heart. I am in this discussion to prevent the following from happening to the TWU members here at AA. You stand alone you die alone.
O. V. Delle-Femine:
I am in receipt of your letter dated July 27, 2005, in which you requested that the IAM
encourage our members to stand with AMFA. You have acknowledged in your letter that there
are philosophical differences between our organizations and memberships.
I am surprised by your request in that since 1962 AMFA has preached that a Mechanic
does not need the assistance of “unskilled” workers such as myself or many of the people I
represent. When you urged the nearly 10,000 Northwest Mechanics (at the time) to join your
craft organization in 1998 you declared their strength lies in their skill, not in the numbers of the
Machinists Union. You must still believe this to be true because as recently as in a July 26,
2005 news article your Assistant National Director Steve MacFarlane said, “Strength in numbers
doesn't necessarily mean strength……..
In your July 27th letter you requested that we encourage our members to stand with
AMFA, thereby recognizing that whether or not someone stands with your organization is an
individual choice. However, it would be very difficult for any IAM member to stand with your
organization knowing full well that if AMFA wins, the IAM members lose, because AMFA, the
institution, is fighting for IAM members to pay more in sacrifices than is currently proposed by
Northwest Airlines.
Our members can rest assured that whatever action the IAM takes will be in the best
interests of its members.
Robert Roach, Jr.
GENERAL VICE PRESIDENT
RR/tlm
cc: Buffenbarger
Executive Council

 

[aapitbull]

[quote name='KUKUY' date='24 September 2010 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1285340475' post='761708
In your July 27th letter you requested that we encourage our members to stand with
AMFA, thereby recognizing that whether or not someone stands with your organization is an
individual choice. However, it would be very difficult for any IAM member to stand with your
organization knowing full well that if AMFA wins, the IAM members lose, because AMFA, the
institution, is fighting for IAM members to pay more in sacrifices than is currently proposed by
Northwest Airlines.
Our members can rest assured that whatever action the IAM takes will be in the best
interests of its members.
Robert Roach, Jr.
GENERAL VICE PRESIDENT
RR/tlm
[/quote]

So Roach is still pissed because the mechanics switched to AMFA and clearly says if AMFA wins they lose that why they hate iindependent unions it takes away their abilty to split up the pie. go rent the movie REDTAIL and come back and tell us did the IAM win at NWA did the pilots and where was the AFL-CIO when they were taking massive paycuts and losing their pensions.

Now for the record I was against the strike at NWA but the Mechanics their were not, a large majority walked out and never went back if this was their choice then so be it. the same thing happened to the mechanics at Eastern who by the way were represented by the IAM why are we not talking about that. as memory serve they asked the TWU who represented the F/A's to support them and the TWU did not. Dell ask for support from all unions on the property ay NWA and did not get it, that says more about them than AMFA. by the way i think their were one or two unionist from the IAM that based on their on principls did not cross, I heard NWA terminated them and the IAM was not much help to get them back however I don't know if thats true or not.

So I guess this means you want be joining me in calling for all members to sign cards.

 

[eolesen]

I'd say you're correct on that -- there's no doubt AMFA created a rift between them and the IAM when they raided, but the IAM essentially decided that holding a grudge trumped honoring a picket line.

In short, the IAM traded honor for hubris.

Color me biased, but what Kukuy and CIO are really inferring is that the APFA, APA, and remaining TWU members aren't pro-labor. They'll simply look out for themselves.

Somehow, I doubt that's the case. I don't think the APA will be looking out for themselves if it comes to a picket line for another workgroup on property. They might have a no-strike clause that says they can't engage in a sympathy strike, but I don't think it prevents them from honoring a legal picket line.

 

[lineguy43]

So Roach is still pissed because the mechanics switched to AMFA and clearly says if AMFA wins they lose that why they hate iindependent unions it takes away their abilty to split up the pie. go rent the movie REDTAIL and come back and tell us did the IAM win at NWA did the pilots and where was the AFL-CIO when they were taking massive paycuts and losing their pensions.

Now for the record I was against the strike at NWA but the Mechanics their were not, a large majority walked out and never went back if this was their choice then so be it. the same thing happened to the mechanics at Eastern who by the way were represented by the IAM why are we not talking about that. as memory serve they asked the TWU who represented the F/A's to support them and the TWU did not. Dell ask for support from all unions on the property ay NWA and did not get it, that says more about them than AMFA. by the way i think their were one or two unionist from the IAM that based on their on principls did not cross, I heard NWA terminated them and the IAM was not much help to get them back however I don't know if thats true or not.

So I guess this means you want be joining me in calling for all members to sign cards.

For the record there is NO union member outthere today who would have voted for what NWA brought back to the AMFA members and it was by design to force a strike. I had 17 yrs at NWA in 2005 and if I had voted for that contract I would have been out of a job so a strike atleast for me was a no brainer. If the IAM much like the TWU had they taken care of the mechanics we would have never thrown them out. The whole time I was at NW when we took paycuts the mechanics took the most as a percent and when it came time for raises as a percent the mechanics got the least. It was a rampers union plain and simple. In our first contract under AMFA I as well as most of the industry got a 7 dollar an hr raise and my retirement more than doubled. In the best of times in the airline industry the IAM brought back a totally substandard contract. Now that said did AMFA make mistakes? Yes they did. Were they arrogant? Yes they were but in the long run I think the industrial unions not supporting what was an obvious union busting effort also hurt them too.

 

[lineguy43]

I'd say you're correct on that -- there's no doubt AMFA created a rift between them and the IAM when they raided, but the IAM essentially decided that holding a grudge trumped honoring a picket line.

In short, the IAM traded honor for hubris.

Color me biased, but what Kukuy and CIO are really inferring is that the APFA, APA, and remaining TWU members aren't pro-labor. They'll simply look out for themselves.

Somehow, I doubt that's the case. I don't think the APA will be looking out for themselves if it comes to a picket line for another workgroup on property. They might have a no-strike clause that says they can't engage in a sympathy strike, but I don't think it prevents them from honoring a legal picket line.

Again I will say this for the last time AMFA DID NOT RAID the IAM. WE WENT TO THEM!!! We went to AMFA because we were sick of the IAM and their BS. The IAM only started trying to appese the mechanics when they knew AMFA became a real threat to them so the IAM pulled out all the stops they formed a seperate district for the mechanics as well but it was too little too damn late.

 

[KUKUY]

I'd say you're correct on that -- there's no doubt AMFA created a rift between them and the IAM when they raided, but the IAM essentially decided that holding a grudge trumped honoring a picket line.

In short, the IAM traded honor for hubris.

Color me biased, but what Kukuy and CIO are really inferring is that the APFA, APA, and remaining TWU members aren't pro-labor. They'll simply look out for themselves.

Somehow, I doubt that's the case. I don't think the APA will be looking out for themselves if it comes to a picket line for another workgroup on property. They might have a no-strike clause that says they can't engage in a sympathy strike, but I don't think it prevents them from honoring a legal picket line.

Where is it legal to have a general strike? What are court injunctions that deny the support for a sympathy strike? APFA, APA and TWU have the most difficult task of negotiating a contract in a recession with a company that is bleeding money. Decertifying the TWU will not change that. Standing alone makes negotiations difficult on so many levels for a new organization that has no resources to make a respectable stand for its members. The sentiment expressed by Brother Roach is echoed by those who experienced the loss of so many union jobs. The loss of close to 80% of the membership is not what any rational person would want for his/her union brother. AMFA did it. I will not let it happen at TheTWU without a fight. What which union are you affliated, eolsen?

 

[Hopeful]

What which union are you affliated, eolsen?

Boy, KUKUY, do you have alot to learn!

 

[lineguy43]

Boy, KUKUY, do you have alot to learn!

Maybe instead of KUKUY it should be KOOKY

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

K,

"Decertifying the TWU will not change that. Standing alone makes negotiations difficult on so many levels for a new organization that has no resources to make a respectable stand for its members."

You are absolutely right! All those other independent unions that went out on their own have failed misserably. The pilots, flight attendants unions not only at AA but SWA and USAirways, etc. have made a big mistake. If only you were around with your cloak of aliasness they would have been better off. Lesson learned I guess.


"I will not let it happen at TheTWU without a fight."

Okay! Okay! No threats necessary! Whew! You are like one of those knights of old on the battle field with their face covered in armor. By the way, how is your fight coming along? Care to visit the line stations and fight for the twu? A lesson learned in deed.

GO AMP!

 

[aapitbull]

Maybe instead of KUKUY it should be KOOKY

Kooky is right but some called him king ed!

 

[KUKUY]

K,

"Decertifying the TWU will not change that. Standing alone makes negotiations difficult on so many levels for a new organization that has no resources to make a respectable stand for its members."

You are absolutely right! All those other independent unions that went out on their own have failed misserably. The pilots, flight attendants unions not only at AA but SWA and USAirways, etc. have made a big mistake. If only you were around with your cloak of aliasness they would have been better off. Lesson learned I guess.


"I will not let it happen at TheTWU without a fight."

Okay! Okay! No threats necessary! Whew! You are like one of those knights of old on the battle field with their face covered in armor. By the way, how is your fight coming along? Care to visit the line stations and fight for the twu? A lesson learned in deed.

GO AMP!

Have the Pilots or Flight Attendants endorsed or said if they support this AMP drive? In the amfa strike at NWA they received no support from any of the unions on the property. Yet, you want that here for the TWU members? As you are on the steering committee have you communicated with the other unions at AA? Have they been receptive?

 

[Hopeful]

Have the Pilots or Flight Attendants endorsed or said if they support this AMP drive? In the amfa strike at NWA they received no support from any of the unions on the property. Yet, you want that here for the TWU members? As you are on the steering committee have you communicated with the other unions at AA? Have they been receptive?

Support?????
Both unions consulted AMP in its creation!