TWU vs. AMP Debate Comments

[Runwaysticker]

Notice the TWU Supporters complain like heck about those seeking change.

Ask them their plan to stop the injustice we are suffering
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And you get
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Silence

I dont see why anyone would have a problem with a vote, if ou are scared of a change keep TWU and assume the position, or get a new union and roll the dice, after the 2003 sellout and the TA they brought back :angry: I am ready to roll.............

 

[Frank Szabo]

I dont see why anyone would have a problem with a vote, if ou are scared of a change keep TWU and assume the position, or get a new union and roll the dice, after the 2003 sellout and the TA they brought back :angry: I am ready to roll.............

I've had that attitude for a long time.

If the TWU is performing such a valuable service in return for the dues paid by its membership, I can't for the life of me see why there would be any problem or objection re: holding a vote in order for said membership to confirm that fact loudly to the entire world and put these raiding parties to rest once and for all - they are rather disruptive, you know.

 

[KUKUY]

I dont see why anyone would have a problem with a vote, if ou are scared of a change keep TWU and assume the position, or get a new union and roll the dice, after the 2003 sellout and the TA they brought back :angry: I am ready to roll.............

AA’s financial prowess in 2001 compared to the bleeding of 2003 and the recession of today has a direct effect on our negotiations. You ignore that fact. Change is great when the agenda of that change has an attainable beneficial goal. With a new union you will have no choice but to roll the dice. With that new union that has no established report with the company, experience of negotiating a contract, experience of arbitrating a case or has established coalitions between the other unions on the property, the position you assume is one of vulnerability and most of all weakness. That craft union mentality doesn’t work here at AA because we all rely so much on each other.
You don’t have the confidence in the elected body that negotiates for you no matter if they bought back the TA or not. The position of Monday morning quarterback is a safe one because it’s all hind sight. Electing a strong negotiator should be on every members mind when those ballots are mailed to their homes. The negotiator you elected evidently was not strong enough to promote your prospective. File your charges or vote him/her out next election.
What great change does amp have in mind? AMP is the organization that wants to replace the TWU. The burden of proof is on you. Convince me and everyone that reads this that AMP is the way to prosperity and the end to suffering. If being more democratic is you answer, don’t waste your pecks on the keyboard. AMP will have elections ranging from who will replace the TP to who will swat a fly.

 

[enough already]

What great change does amp have in mind?

Ummmm RESULTS!!!

 

[Hopeful]

What great change does amp have in mind? AMP is the organization that wants to replace the TWU. The burden of proof is on you. Convince me and everyone that reads this that AMP is the way to prosperity and the end to suffering. If being more democratic is you answer, don’t waste your pecks on the keyboard. AMP will have elections ranging from who will replace the TP to who will swat a fly.

Well for starters, how about no more sleeping with the company and giving in to their every demand.
No more lifetime appointments....
No more outrageous salaries...
Enforce mutal respect between company and labor and not just throw your hands up and succumb to company threats of mass gloom and doom.

Basically, doing EVERTHING the TWU has failed to do.

 

[eolesen]

What great change does amp have in mind?\

Seems to me the great change they seek is simple yet powerful --- directly elected peers who are held accountable by the membership via regular voting.

Kukuy says you need "experience" and "prowess" in dealing with the company.

The GOP was saying the same thing about the political neophytes running as Tea Party candidates. Yet the voters decided that they'd rather take a chance with a neophyte who wasn't part of the old establishment, than to simply tolerate "politics as usual".

Somehow, I suspect breaking with "tradition" and "experience" wouldn't be the worst thing in the world...

 

[Hopeful]

Seems to me the great change they seek is simple yet powerful --- directly elected peers who are held accountable by the membership via regular voting.

Kukuy says you need "experience" and "prowess" in dealing with the company.

The GOP was saying the same thing about the political neophytes running as Tea Party candidates. Yet the voters decided that they'd rather take a chance with a neophyte who wasn't part of the old establishment, than to simply tolerate "politics as usual".

Somehow, I suspect breaking with "tradition" and "experience" wouldn't be the worst thing in the world...

Good point. To counter Kukuy's point about experience and prowess, will say this; Any mechanic having lived through the last few contracts has experience and prowess. But in dealing with the company's professional negotiators, we would need to have our own professionals sitting face to face with them.
And for those die hards who still believe the strength in numbers mantra...to them I say this.....LOOK WHERE STRENGTH IN NUMBERS HAS GOTTEN US TO DATE!

 

[aapitbull]

To Kukuy

Are joining me in calling for everyone to sign a card? you say we will have to build repor with the company but at the end of the day we must find out what the members want, not withstanding anything else that might be required or do you disagree.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

AA’s financial prowess in 2001 compared to the bleeding of 2003 and the recession of today has a direct effect on our negotiations. You ignore that fact. Change is great when the agenda of that change has an attainable beneficial goal. With a new union you will have no choice but to roll the dice. With that new union that has no established report with the company, experience of negotiating a contract, experience of arbitrating a case or has established coalitions between the other unions on the property, the position you assume is one of vulnerability and most of all weakness. That craft union mentality doesn’t work here at AA because we all rely so much on each other.
You don’t have the confidence in the elected body that negotiates for you no matter if they bought back the TA or not. The position of Monday morning quarterback is a safe one because it’s all hind sight. Electing a strong negotiator should be on every members mind when those ballots are mailed to their homes. The negotiator you elected evidently was not strong enough to promote your prospective. File your charges or vote him/her out next election.
What great change does amp have in mind? AMP is the organization that wants to replace the TWU. The burden of proof is on you. Convince me and everyone that reads this that AMP is the way to prosperity and the end to suffering. If being more democratic is you answer, don’t waste your pecks on the keyboard. AMP will have elections ranging from who will replace the TP to who will swat a fly.

kukuy,

"With that new union that has no established report with the company, experience of negotiating a contract, experience of arbitrating a case or has established coalitions between the other unions on the property, the position you assume is one of vulnerability and most of all weakness. That craft union mentality doesn’t work here at AA because we all rely so much on each other."

Report with the company? Oh, you mean the one like the twu has with the company?

Company: Hey twu. We need to remove A&Ps from the back shops. Oh, we also need you to accept life changing concessions to sAAve the company from filing bk. And while you're at it we don't want to give back or "snap-back" anything we take. Oh, and we will also drag our feet for 2 years while we pretend to "negotiate".

twu: No problem! We can't be voted out of office so we'll do what you want and just put a catchy slogan on it. How about "shAAred sAAcrifice"?

Company: That will work just fine.

No thanks kukuy.

Experience negotiating a contract? You mean like the way the twu does?

twu #1: Hey guys. How do we peddle this pos t/a?

twu #2: Hey! Let's put a flyer insert in all the ballots urging a yes vote?

twu #3: Hey! Great idea #2. Let's make it in color too!

No thanks kukuy.

Experience in arbitrating a case? You mean like the one in Tulsa regarding outsourcing engine work?

twu #1: Hey! What do we do with this grievance over the engine work being outsourced?

twu #2: SSHHH!!! Ignore it and it will go away.

No thanks kukuy.

Craft union mentality doesn't work here?

Thank you for insulting my profession.

No thanks kukuy.

Electing a strong negotiator should be on every members mind when those ballots are mailed to their homes. The negotiator you elected evidently was not strong enough to promote your prospective. File your charges or vote him/her out next election.

I elected my LOCAL negotiator and will indeed file a charge or vote him/her out next election. I will do the very same thing for all the international officers that were elected by the membership.

Oh, wait a second! You neglect to mention that international officers can not be voted out next election. So what's it going to be kukuy? Full democracy or just half democracy? A CRAFT union wants to know.

 

[High Speed Steel]

Re post #45 aapitbull:

This whole debate thing is getting pretty stupid now. Here we have pitbull making issue over the Patco Strike that happened almost 30 years ago. Hell I was just out of High School at the time and I'm gonna guess pittbull was around 14 years old in 1981 and still riding a school bus....He wants to make issue about Patco, he was not even working within the industry at the time and his only source of information is history books...

pitbull, I'm not interested in history lessons. Either move to some true topic of interest, or go sit in the Truck......geeeezzz :blink:

 

[aapitbull]

Re post #45 aapitbull:

This whole debate thing is getting pretty stupid now. Here we have pitbull making issue over the Patco Strike that happened almost 30 years ago. Hell I was just out of High School at the time and I'm gonna guess pittbull was around 14 years old in 1981 and still riding a school bus....He wants to make issue about Patco, he was not even working within the industry at the time and his only source of information is history books...

pitbull, I'm not interested in history lessons. Either move to some true topic of interest, or go sit in the Truck......geeeezzz :blink:

Well since you can't seem to get the point I will break iit down for you I knew that Patco was not a member of the AFL-CIO and I was wondering how long it was going to take one of you finally bring it up Now the point OVER LAST 30 YEARS THE AFL-CIO HAS FAILED TO STEP TO THE PLATE AND PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF THE WORKING MAN, ALL THE WHILE THEIR MEMBERSHIP HAS BEEN DROPPING LIKE A ROCK AND ALL THEY CAN DO IS BLAME LEGALTIES AND AFFILIATION ETC ETC FOR NOT DOING ANYTHING TO STOP THE DESTRUCTION OF UNIONISM.

Now when members seek change they are the problem ,not the institution that has been charged with the protection of unionism, You say you don't need a history lesson well I for one disagree.

In the words of Jack Nicholsen "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH"

 

[TWU informer]

Re post #45 aapitbull:

This whole debate thing is getting pretty stupid now. Here we have pitbull making issue over the Patco Strike that happened almost 30 years ago. Hell I was just out of High School at the time and I'm gonna guess pittbull was around 14 years old in 1981 and still riding a school bus....He wants to make issue about Patco, he was not even working within the industry at the time and his only source of information is history books...

pitbull, I'm not interested in history lessons. Either move to some true topic of interest, or go sit in the Truck......geeeezzz :blink:

Out of all the famous quotations, few better describe this eerily familiar time than those attributed to George Santayana and Yogi Berra. The former, a philosopher, warned that "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." The latter, a baseball player, stumbled into prophecy by declaring, "It's deja vu all over again."

No matter the issue, this axiom is the same: When money has a vested interest in burying history, history is inevitably buried, ultimately leading us from Santayana and Berra's aphorisms to Albert Einstein's definition of insanity: doing the same things over and over again and somehow expecting different results.

High Speed Steel, it is folks that think like you that make it into union office mostly appointed and repeat the same mistakes over and over again that lead to a card drive to oust the TWU. Regardless of how may years ago the PATCO strike took place and President Reagan fired those employees, it happens to be a significant part of labor history that demostrates the failure in taking a position that because some group doesn't confirm to the AFL-CIO established form of unionism that so-called union men/women will pick and and choose if and when they will stand in support of middle class workers. That isn't unionism at all, that is holding freedom to choose representation as monetary and belief hostages for ransom. And regardless of your opinion, each and every failed battle in organized labor history including PATCO, or AMFA/NWA, IAM/EASTERN, each of these failed out comes have a direct impact on each of us in our struggle to keep the middle class from becoming poor. And 2 of 3 were of the nature where AFL-CIO turned their backs on workers and watched from the sidelines. Evidence shows that AFL-CIO support or non-support is not really the ingrediant that dictates win/loss outcome to begin with. Yet, just as the arrogant fools are losing the battles in the political arena, you and others still hold the belief that they are all powerful and important. In fact the AFL-CIO is now controlled by mostly untouchable and unaccountable weak and fear mongering leaders that make enough financially to classify them as rich.

You refuse to read the historical documents that are dictated proceedings of the past TWU Conventions that will clearly prove to you that "change from within" has failed time and time again. So you ignore those that have read and understand this history. You seem to be content to remember and dwell on history that suits your opinions and needs, but disregard completely any historical fact that could place your allegiance in question.

Go ahead and ignore history, and history will be repeated. Maybe that is why the T/A that was just voted down was to create another division within the TWU of the "have nots". The B - Scale, the SRP, and now the SMA and those without retirement medical and defined pension. Everytime I read some TWU advocate writing material about how organizing drives divide the TWU membership, I just have to laugh. You have been vicitimzed and wrote letters about your group being seperated by loss of skill premium. I recall something to the effect of a Bee-Hive being kicked over. Well the TWU keeps failing to learn from history, and it must be because the leadership like you refuses to admit or review historical failues and outcomes. I see you as much smarter than that, but I watch is awe as your emotions take over and your intelligence is relegated to standby.

The unionism of the AFL-CIO that claims you only get support if you conform to our ways and ideas, is the equivilent allowing a human race or population to be wiped out because of their religous or political beliefs or even just simply because of their race. If you ever want to get to the bottom of the failures of organized labor as a whole, simply look at the AFL-CIO and how they use and/or withold support to assist suffering working men and women as a manipulation tool to attempt to gain dominace and control over organized labor. They will standy and watch a group union men and women struggle because they "don't belong" or "don't conform". Yet they don't hesitate to lobby for a raise in minimum wage, 40 hour work week, workmans comp, ect. for those that don't even belong to ANY union period much less the AFL-CIO family of unions. What is even more appauling is that you and other TWU supporters keep using this injustice as a reason to stick around with an AFL-CIO union. Each time I think about this, I scratch my head and say, I am surrounded by F'ing idiots.

 

[High Speed Steel]

Well since you can't seem to get the point I will break iit down for you I knew that Patco was not a member of the AFL-CIO and I was wondering how long it was going to take one of you finally bring it up Now the point OVER LAST 30 YEARS THE AFL-CIO HAS FAILED TO STEP TO THE PLATE AND PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF THE WORKING MAN, ALL THE WHILE THEIR MEMBERSHIP HAS BEEN DROPPING LIKE A ROCK AND ALL THEY CAN DO IS BLAME LEGALTIES AND AFFILIATION ETC ETC FOR NOT DOING ANYTHING TO STOP THE DESTRUCTION OF UNIONISM.

Now when members seek change they are the problem ,not the institution that has been charged with the protection of unionism, You say you don't need a history lesson well I for one disagree.

In the words of Jack Nicholsen "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH"

Wow, pitbull....the destruction of unionism? You suggest unfounded accusations. Where is the charge to the institution that they have not met their obligation?

 

[TWU informer]

Wow, pitbull....the destruction of unionism? You suggest unfounded accusations. Where is the charge to the institution that they have not met their obligation?

Do you deny that 30 Years ago organized labor was 35% of ther workforce and today it is about 12%?

Do you know that of that 12% that is left, most of those are State and Federal Government Workers that you pay their salaries from your payroll taxes?

If that is not destruction of unionism, then I would like to know your defintion.

 

[aapitbull]

Wow, pitbull....the destruction of unionism? You suggest unfounded accusations. Where is the charge to the institution that they have not met their obligation?

You cannot be serious, they are directly or indirectly responsible for nearly all of the failures of the last half century whether it be thru legislation that deregulated whole industries or inaction when faced with pivotal points in history such as PATCO.

Well I guess if you ignore history they have done well my apologies.