TWU vs. AMP Debate Comments

[787nightmare]

Have the Pilots or Flight Attendants endorsed or said if they support this AMP drive? In the amfa strike at NWA they received no support from any of the unions on the property. Yet, you want that here for the TWU members? As you are on the steering committee have you communicated with the other unions at AA? Have they been receptive?

As was demonstrated at NWA...the pilots and F/As couldn't care less about our situation. The flight crews(flyboys, sky waitresses)are only concerned about themselves. Period.(some small % exceptions)
We mechanics are on our own. You guys MUST stick together and realize the TWU is not going to get it done for you and make plans to get there asses out of AA! It's that simple guys.

Whether now or after this contract...is up to you guys(no easy task)...but the TWU needs to go.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Have the Pilots or Flight Attendants endorsed or said if they support this AMP drive? In the amfa strike at NWA they received no support from any of the unions on the property. Yet, you want that here for the TWU members? As you are on the steering committee have you communicated with the other unions at AA? Have they been receptive?

Why should the AMP drive depend on the pilots or f/a's support? I can tell you that flight crews have told us that they wish us luck in removing the twu. Are you ignorantly saying that because AMP is an independent union the other independent unions at AA would not support AMP? INSULTING COMMENT REMOVED BY MODERATOR


GO AMP!

 

[Just the Facts II]

Hey Ken, where can I get my own "cloak of aliasness"? I only have a blanket! :unsure:

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Hey Ken, where can I get my own "cloak of aliasness"? I only have a blanket! :unsure:

That's easy... just wrap the blanket over your head. 🙂

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

cio,

Still waiting for you to start debating why the twu constitution is better than AMP's Constitution. It has been how many weeks since you started this "debate" and we are all still wondering why twu international positions are appointed and not elected by the full membership.

GO AMP!

 

[CIO]

cio,

Still waiting for you to start debating why the twu constitution is better than AMP's Constitution. It has been how many weeks since you started this "debate" and we are all still wondering why twu international positions are appointed and not elected by the full membership.

GO AMP!

Ken, I believe if you look at the TWU vs AMP thread you will see many posts pertaining to the constitution.

Since you were a TWU officer and ran away because you actually had to represent the membership. We can assume you read the constitution and know the Top officers are elected not appointed.

I have a couple of question:

How many conventions have you attended?

Under the Amp constitution is everyone eligible to recall officers?

In Solidarity
CIO

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Ken, I believe if you look at the TWU vs AMP thread you will see many posts pertaining to the constitution.

Since you were a TWU officer and ran away because you actually had to represent the membership. We can assume you read the constitution and know the Top officers are elected not appointed.

I have a couple of question:

How many conventions have you attended?

Under the Amp constitution is everyone eligible to recall officers?

In Solidarity
CIO

cio,

Unlike you I have read what you wrote and UNDERSTAND what you have written but there is nothing from you stating WHY the twu constitution is better than AMP's. Pointing to soem hyperlink doesn't hack it. From behind your cloak of secrecy come out and state for the record that the twu membership DOES NOT elect int. officers.

"Since you were a TWU officer and ran away because you actually had to represent the membership. We can assume you read the constitution and know the Top officers are elected not appointed."

I was a Local E-Board Member of Local 565 and elected by the membership. I resigned, which in your cowardly world must equate to "running away", (tough words from a guy using an alias), and you can ask anyone here who voted for me and theyn will say they respected my decision to resign and promote AMP. Considering DFW AMTs have overwhelmingly signed AMP cards they must see how bad the twu is and are aware of what it means to stand up and be heard and seen when promoting our craft and profession. This is something you already know all about, standing up and being heard and seen when promoting something you believe in as you do this daily from behind an alias. Doh!

Representing the membership? Just ask Local 565's membership and they will tell you I represented them to the best of my ability. Now what is that about "Top officers" being elected? You ARE NOT saying international officers are elected by the full membership because if you are that would make you a liar.

I have not attended any twu convention. Why waste my time? Nothing democratic gets done there. You see, at an AMP National Convention issues that pertain to my craft and class are discussed. There are no casino dealers, bus drivers, flight attendants or other twu represented work groups just my craft and class. Kind of a strange concept for you, huh?

"Under the Amp constitution is everyone eligible to recall officers?"

Remember what I said about your ability to read AND comprehend? Since you continue to drive this point home for me I will answer you. As long as you are a member in good standing, yes.

GO AMP!

 

[KUKUY]

Why should the AMP drive depend on the pilots or f/a's support? I can tell you that flight crews have told us that they wish us luck in removing the twu. Are you ignorantly saying that because AMP is an independent union the other independent unions at AA would not support AMP? INSULTING COMMENT REMOVED BY MODERATOR


GO AMP!

Touting that the AMP constitution is based on the APA’s constitution logically leads one to believe that there was some communication between the two entities. In your unofficial survey, with how many crews did you talk and are you excluding the crews that expressed concern about being an independent union in the airline industry? There were 6 independent FA unions now there is one. Fed-Ex, Air Tran and Cal pilots have gone to the ALPA. There is unity between the APA, APFA and TWU at AA. Solidarity rang loudly at the protest against corporate greed earlier this year at DFW. “Proof in the pudding” as shown because the APFA, APA and TWU marched side by side for a common cause. What is the official position of the AFPA and APA on the AMP drive? When is AMP going to drop the facade and claim its true name AMFA? Does AMFA believe that an industrial union affiliated with the AFL-CIO will support their failed efforts again?

 

[787nightmare]

Touting that the AMP constitution is based on the APA’s constitution logically leads one to believe that there was some communication between the two entities. In your unofficial survey, with how many crews did you talk and are you excluding the crews that expressed concern about being an independent union in the airline industry? There were 6 independent FA unions now there is one. Fed-Ex, Air Tran and Cal pilots have gone to the ALPA. There is unity between the APA, APFA and TWU at AA. Solidarity rang loudly at the protest against corporate greed earlier this year at DFW. “Proof in the pudding” as shown because the APFA, APA and TWU marched side by side for a common cause. What is the official position of the AFPA and APA on the AMP drive? When is AMP going to drop the facade and claim its true name AMFA? Does AMFA believe that an industrial union affiliated with the AFL-CIO will support their failed efforts again?

"because the APFA, APA and TWU marched side by side for a common cause"...

They may have "marched side by side"...but I guarantee you when it hits the fan, they'll walk right by your picket line & say "good luck" on the way to the gate. :unsure:

And personally, I wouldn't care if an AFL-CIO union supported a strike effort(if I was actually back at AA). The mechanics will either hold out or not(or the Co will bust the union)
To be honest with you...I was shocked NWA didn't flat ass bust the IAM(ramp/clerical) when the mechanics went out.
Of course they agreed to virtually everything the company wanted...
Like the old saying goes, better to die on your feet and say enough!...than to live on your knees!(like the TWU and IAM are accustomed to doing)

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Touting that the AMP constitution is based on the APA’s constitution that there was some communication between the two entities. and are you excluding the crews that expressed concern about being an independent union in the airline industry? There were 6 independent FA unions now there is one. Fed-Ex, Air Tran and Cal pilots have gone to the ALPA. There is unity between the APA, APFA and TWU at AA. Solidarity rang loudly at the protest against corporate greed earlier this year at DFW. “Proof in the pudding” as shown because the APFA, APA and TWU marched side by side for a common cause. What is the official position of the AFPA and APA on the AMP drive? When is AMP going to drop the facade and claim its true name AMFA? Does AMFA believe that an industrial union affiliated with the AFL-CIO will support their failed efforts again?

kukuy,

Wow, between you and cio tag teaming the AMP drive just keeps picking up steam. Keep up the good work. Your lack of defending the twu constitution is PRICELESS!

COMMENT DELETED BY MODERATOR

"logically leads one to believe", well, this statement leaves you and cio out.

"In your unofficial survey, with how many crews did you talk", I never said I took a survey, either officially or unofficially. What I said is that the crews I have spoken with not one person said AMP was a bad idea. Actually, just the opposite. But continue to ignore reality and facts as stated by a person who believes in democracy and accountability.

"There were 6 independent FA unions now there is one. Fed-Ex, Air Tran and Cal pilots have gone to the ALPA." And your point being? Is the one remaining independent FA union doing poorly? You see my my unknown poster, these unions you speak of went independent in order to remedy a problem much the same way the AMTs are doing at AA. We are trying to remove a cancer from ruining our craft and class. The cure is called true democracy and accountability in a craft union.

" There is unity between the APA, APFA and TWU at AA." Okay, in your little secretive world where no one knows your name you are aware of information that indicates that when AMP becomes certified the APA and PFA will have nothing to do with AMP? Two independent craft unions will shun another independent craft union because the twu is no longer representing AMTs? Whew! Pretty big ego you have there k. Don't worry though, you still have the Ramp to represent so your pajama parties can continue.

"Solidarity rang loudly at the protest against corporate greed earlier this year at DFW." Yup, I know, I was there. And I and AMP will continue to be there to fight against corporate greed. Your point?

"What is the official position of the AFPA and APA on the AMP drive?" Why do you care? If they haven't come out with a public statement condemning or critical statement against the AMP drive then it would "logically lead one to believe" they are neutral in another unions internal affairs. (See above about this statement leaving you and cio out.)

"When is AMP going to drop the facade and claim its true name AMFA?" Can't drop something we never picked up. Try again.

"Does AMFA believe that an industrial union affiliated with the AFL-CIO will support their failed efforts again?" Why ask me? Call AMFA National and ask them yourself. You do know how to use a phone don't you?

GO AMP!

 

[CIO]

cio,

Unlike you I have read what you wrote and UNDERSTAND what you have written but there is nothing from you stating WHY the twu constitution is better than AMP's. Pointing to soem hyperlink doesn't hack it. From behind your cloak of secrecy come out and state for the record that the twu membership DOES NOT elect int. officers.

"Since you were a TWU officer and ran away because you actually had to represent the membership. We can assume you read the constitution and know the Top officers are elected not appointed."

I was a Local E-Board Member of Local 565 and elected by the membership. I resigned, which in your cowardly world must equate to "running away", (tough words from a guy using an alias), and you can ask anyone here who voted for me and theyn will say they respected my decision to resign and promote AMP. Considering DFW AMTs have overwhelmingly signed AMP cards they must see how bad the twu is and are aware of what it means to stand up and be heard and seen when promoting our craft and profession. This is something you already know all about, standing up and being heard and seen when promoting something you believe in as you do this daily from behind an alias. Doh!

Representing the membership? Just ask Local 565's membership and they will tell you I represented them to the best of my ability. Now what is that about "Top officers" being elected? You ARE NOT saying international officers are elected by the full membership because if you are that would make you a liar.

I have not attended any twu convention. Why waste my time? Nothing democratic gets done there. You see, at an AMP National Convention issues that pertain to my craft and class are discussed. There are no casino dealers, bus drivers, flight attendants or other twu represented work groups just my craft and class. Kind of a strange concept for you, huh?

"Under the Amp constitution is everyone eligible to recall officers?"

Remember what I said about your ability to read AND comprehend? Since you continue to drive this point home for me I will answer you. As long as you are a member in good standing, yes.

I understand that your can’t be bothered with attending a TWU Convention, but if you had bothered to attend you would have found more than just the lowly bus drivers and casino dealers you deride. There are also bus mechanics, maintenance of way technicians, electricians, carpenters and millwrights, railroad mechanics, sheet metal workers, dispatchers, and flight attendants. All of them are good people who I learned from. But, what I find ironic is that if your in house craft union ever goes on strike you will be pleading for these people and people like them from other unions – who you can’t be bothered with and who you find it a waste of time to associate with – for their support. Of course, you may luck out and receive close to a million dollars in assistance from one of those corrupt industrial unions like AMFA did.



In Solidarity,
CIO

 

[1AA]

There is unity between the APA, APFA and TWU at AA. Solidarity rang loudly at the protest against corporate greed earlier this year at DFW. “Proof in the pudding” as shown because the APFA, APA and TWU marched side by side for a common cause.

Speaking of support side by side I remember a few years back when the bonuses were revealed the pilots put a full page ad in the USA Today and probably the local DFW paper protesting the bonuses and greed while we took the hit in the backside. The Flight attendants did the same. Those two work groups stood up against the company. What did the TWU do? They put a full page ad in the local Tulsa paper showing an AMT in the cockpit of a 767 and the idea of the ad was how the TWU and American are working together. So there goes your unity. Preaching TWU solidarity and unity is a joke. It only exists within the International reps and the kool aid drinkers. There is only one solution at this time and it is NEW representation.

And we are still waiting for CIO to answer the question about the TWU Constitution. It seems he only answers with another question and or avoids it all together. A total waste of time.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

I understand that your can’t be bothered with attending a TWU Convention, but if you had bothered to attend you would have found more than just the lowly bus drivers and casino dealers you deride. There are also bus mechanics, maintenance of way technicians, electricians, carpenters and millwrights, railroad mechanics, sheet metal workers, dispatchers, and flight attendants. All of them are good people who I learned from. But, what I find ironic is that if your in house craft union ever goes on strike you will be pleading for these people and people like them from other unions – who you can’t be bothered with and who you find it a waste of time to associate with – for their support. Of course, you may luck out and receive close to a million dollars in assistance from one of those corrupt industrial unions like AMFA did.



In Solidarity,
CIO

cio,

My not going has nothing to do with being "bothered". As an E-Board member this was my first opportunity to go and another Board Member went in my place. I got a full report on how UNdemocratic the twu national convention is. By the way, when people vote on an issue I figured that after all the ballots/hands for or against were counted the simple majority for yes or no ruled the day and the next issue was brought up to be voted on. Then why do they vote SEVERAL times on the same issue at the convention?

As for your comment "just the lowly bus drivers and casino dealers you deride." these are your words not mine. You see, this is the typical twu defense for their unaccountable, undemocratic ways... attack someone from behind an alias and insinuate negative comments. Post where I have EVER described bus drivers, casino dealers, bus mechanics, maintenance of way technicians, electricians, carpenters and millwrights, railroad mechanics, sheet metal workers, dispatchers, and flight attendants as "lowly". Otherwise you are a coward and liar. Yes, you read this right. You have written something I NEVER said, claimed or alluded to. What's that? Oh, another 5 AMP cards signed.

I know these are good people, I never said otherwise. AGAIN you insinuate. You and the rest of the few twu faithful alias posting officers just can not grasp the concept of my craft and class wanting a democratic craft union. The point I tried to get across to you, (yes, I know, I know you can NOT read and comprehend but I tried anyway), is that AMP wishes to represent those in our craft and class at AA. The workgroups that the twu represents I wish them the best of luck. As I do all union people. The simple fact remains that the twu DOES NOT give me a democratic, accountable system for protecting and promoting my craft and class. When AMP is certified we will behave like a real union and work with other unions.

The only people who are a waste of time are those who promote/prop up an undemocratic, unaccountable union pretending that they are just that and all from behind the wall of secrecy.

GO AMP!

 

[KUKUY]

"because the APFA, APA and TWU marched side by side for a common cause"...

They may have "marched side by side"...but I guarantee you when it hits the fan, they'll walk right by your picket line & say "good luck" on the way to the gate. :unsure:

And personally, I wouldn't care if an AFL-CIO union supported a strike effort(if I was actually back at AA). The mechanics will either hold out or not(or the Co will bust the union)
To be honest with you...I was shocked NWA didn't flat ass bust the IAM(ramp/clerical) when the mechanics went out.
Of course they agreed to virtually everything the company wanted...
Like the old saying goes, better to die on your feet and say enough!...than to live on your knees!(like the TWU and IAM are accustomed to doing)

From 10,000 members to 2,700 members, is the path you promote. This is AMFA’s history. That cannot be denied. There is no logic that can rationalize that as sane. Recognize that the IAM does have the political power and solidarity to thwart a union busting drive. On the contrary, AMFA is doing the company’s union busting work by attempting to splinter the union at AA. AMFA didn’t have the power to keep the members it had at UA and other companies. 73% of the membership gone but this is the philosophy you promote. The La Guardia Act is what has to be reinstated so the honoring of picket lines is not denied because of some court injunction.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

From 10,000 members to 2,700 members, is the path you promote. This is AMFA’s history. That cannot be denied. There is no logic that can rationalize that as sane. Recognize that the IAM does have the political power and solidarity to thwart a union busting drive. On the contrary, AMFA is doing the company’s union busting work by attempting to splinter the union at AA. AMFA didn’t have the power to keep the members it had at UA and other companies. 73% of the membership gone but this is the philosophy you promote. The La Guardia Act is what has to be reinstated so the honoring of picket lines is not denied because of some court injunction.

kukuy,

Appropriate alias considering you find democracy and accountability to be the "boogie man" in your world. The attempt of the twu stools to connect AMFA to AMP is hilarious.

Still can't defend that constitution of yours? There is no splintering of the unions at AA. My craft and class will remain in a union but in a craft, democratic union. The twu will still represent the Ramp. So where is the splintering? Why must my craft and class remain with the twu if we do not want to? Are you afraid of an election between AMP and the twu? If there is any splintering or division at AA it is being devised by the company and peddled by the twu. Care to explain the colored flyer inserted in my ballot urging me to vote yes on a concessionary t/a?

The twu has been splintering my craft and class at AA. Care to explain srp/osm and future sma positions?

GO AMP! (Boo!!)