TWU negotiations.........what?

[TWU informer]

Or maybe we can elect Romney and eliminate the minimum wage and then we all can work several jobs! Romney can then fill the NMB with more of Larry Gibbons' buddies from AIRCON who will never recommend that anybody ever gets released, unless of course the carrier requests it.

Otherwise good post.

And you still believe there are Politicians that are your friends?

Now I understand why you thought the TWU would take an agressive stand and you advocated voting NO.
Just because you were at the table, did not make one damn difference, but you will not be the first or the last to fall into that trap.

The point was, the TWU claimed that by giving $$$ from our paychecks to his campaign, we would get favorable NMB rulings and mediators. Never happened..... Just like all the other Political BS the TWU claims is true.

 

[Bob Owens]

And so now we know why the latest and greatest sellout is upon us. Now you know why I voted YES on the T/A.

You and Bob were assuming that the TWU would take an agressive posture, I will never understand why you thought that because there has never been any evidence of it from my membership status with the TWU.

I may never understand, but whatever.

I cant understand why anyone would let them off the hook for bringing back bad deals by voting YES.

A YES vote is interpreted as an endorsement, even if as in your case its not. Not voting at all sends a more powerful message than a "yes because I dont think they will do any better" vote.

 

[TWU informer]

I cant understand why anyone would let them off the hook for bringing back bad deals by voting YES.

I have told you time and time again. The same thing happens everytime and there wasn't a chance in hell of getting anything better.

Maybe some day you will have it within yourself to admit I was right. But I doubt it.

Let them off the hook? Are you $hitting me?
You are the one with the sworn oath of allegiance, not me.

You were not powerful enough to convince me it would ever be different. And my position was correct and factual.
Most everything you said, has been proven a pipe dream. No need to list the quotes again, you know what I mean.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Voting No will be a rough road for all of us, the International as well, because if the contract is abrogated and they do like they have for the last four years (six if you count the fact that they did not do the early openers as promised in 2003) and refuse to take an agressive position in getting to a fair deal in a timely manner the members can just stop paying them. No contract-no Article 38.



Could not agree with you more!

If we quit paying, maybe they'll go away - I can get screwed around for free by the company, not having to pay dues for the "privilege" of supposed "representation" and the abuse is equally as good even without the "middleman". If a "no" vote will help send the SOBs packing, I'm all for it regardless of any other fallout.

... and that attitude will probably buy me another drug test to go along with Friday's ...​

 

[Bob Owens]

Now I understand why you thought the TWU would take an agressive stand and you advocated voting NO.
Just because you were at the table, did not make one damn difference, but you will not be the first or the last to fall into that trap.

I believe I said on many occasions that we may have to vote no more than once and keep voting NO until they bring back something acceptable.

You may feel that I did not make one damn bit of difference, your opinion and you are entitled to it, I dissagree, and so do the guys who thank me all the time for what I do.

 

[Dilligas]

Typically mergers create synergies which results in surpluss workers. That has not happened to mechanics in any of the mergers. Outsourcing, thats a different issue but does AA really want to outsource as much as they claim?

Oh indeed they do Bob, or they wouldn't have put it in the term sheet. I suspect you will stay in denial to the bitter end. They want headcount down and bodies off the payroll. Just like BK was not an idle threat, neither is outsourcing. It is a certainty, the goal now should be to minimize it to whatever extent possible.

I mentioned NW & UA losing thousands of M&R jobs because they are the carriers with the most in common with your present situation... (BK and facing outsourcing).

Obviously SW and Airtran have not been through BK and have nothing to offer as comparison to your situation, why do you keep bringing them up?

I don't understand why you keep mixing BK and mergers in your posts, the merger is only an IF, the BK and the outsourcing is a REALITY and every airline that went through it cut M&R and outsourced. You better believe AA means to do it.

Once your company goes into BK and either guts or abrogates your contract, everything changes and all bets are off. AA labor is on the edge of the cliff and needs to find a solution to save as much of their quality of work life and as many jobs as they can.

The focus should not be on US, or any other airline. It should be on your contract with AA period.

 

[Bob Owens]

No need to list the quotes again.

By all means go ahead, just ask your new friend Overspeed for his.

 

[iluvaa]

I believe I said on many occasions that we may have to vote no more than once and keep voting NO until they bring back something acceptable.

You may feel that I did not make one damn bit of difference, your opinion and you are entitled to it, I dissagree, and so do the guys who thank me all the time for what I do.

Not to speak for Dave but im thinking he ment you tried your ass off and what did it get us "no where" I for one qoute you all the time because your the only one who talks.

 

[TWU informer]

By all means go ahead, just ask your new friend Overspeed for his.

I have no idea who Overspeed is, have some suspects, but not positive.

Just because he quotes you also, does not make us friends. He is nothing that a weak minded and weak union man, but so is every other entrenched TWU supporter. Most of them just enjoy the time they get away from their job but do not even have a clue what real unionism is or what is looks like. I know, because I was once one of them too.

Is Retro still on the table?
Did we leave money on the table?
Did you get the release, that would save us all?
Is it the last hour of the final day yet?

All of these absurd claims led us nowhere but backwards. While you kept thumping your chest in Public, James C. Little was behind the scenes making sure the real TWU plan came together.

Look Bob, I understand why you believed in yourself and others, but when you are represented by the TWU, it doesn't matter who sits at the table or how loud they bang a drum, you are still nothing more than a patsy and you fell for the same crap that has happened at least twice in my 28 years as a TWU member. Do I blame you for having hope and wanting to be a strong union man, NO. But the longer you keep ignoring the truth and refusing to admit you were wrong, the deeper the hole gets that you are in.

 

[Bob Owens]

Oh indeed they do Bob, or they wouldn't have put it in the term sheet.

Then why did they already "agree" to less? In 2003 the company said 25% in concessions or thousands of jobs, when the committee said take the jobs the company and the International withdrew the offer. They ended up taking both. Fast Forward, we are once again "saving jobs" but giving them the language to outsource them anyway. Any guess on how this could turn out?

I suspect you will stay in denial to the bitter end. They want headcount down and bodies off the payroll.

Then give it to them, because they will get it anyway but keep the job a good job to come back to.

Just like BK was not an idle threat, neither is outsourcing. It is a certainty, the goal now should be to minimize it to whatever extent possible.

I did not say it wasnt a threat, just not as much as they claimed. The goal should be to preserve Union scales and benefits, both Delta and Jet Blue are ahead of us.

I mentioned NW & UA losing thousands of M&R jobs because they are the carriers with the most in common with your present situation... (BK and facing outsourcing).

Yes and when they went into BK the largest carrier in the country, their biggest competitor , American Airlines, which already had OSMs in place, had agreed to 25% in concessions. They had no choice but to outsource, plus at the time everyone was laying off so the MROs had a glut of mechanics.

Obviously SW and Airtran have not been through BK and have nothing to offer as comparison to your situation, why do you keep bringing them up?

Why wouldnt I? Their mechanics do the same thing I do, they just get paid a lot more.

I don't understand why you keep mixing BK and mergers in your posts, the merger is only an IF, the BK and the outsourcing is a REALITY and every airline that went through it cut M&R and outsourced. You better believe AA means to do it.

Then why agree to concessions? We are already at the bottom, why lgo even lower if they are going to cut what they want anyway?

AA labor is on the edge of the cliff and needs to find a solution to save as much of their quality of work life and as many jobs as they can.

A choice will have to be made, numbers of people paying dues or quality of the Job. If you choose numbers everyone loses, if you choose quality, those who lack seniority suffer but have something to go back to. When the next "push" happens they will have the seniority. What we have been engaged in is a vicious circle that just keeps repeating itself. Like I said I've been laid off, saw companies I work for liquidate, it sucks, but I never thought that we should lower everyones wages so I would not get laid off. I was confident that one day I would have the senioirity and not be the guy to hit the streets. I had something to look forward to, its one of the reasons I went into this industry. Layoffs instead of concessions is the price we must pay for a better future. Concessions for jobs simply rewards the employer for not running his business properly and it will only end when workers will no longer show up.

 

[TWU informer]

Concessions for jobs simply rewards the employer for not running his business properly and it will only end when workers will no longer show up.

Or workers are glad to show up for the lower pay, but cannot do the safety related work properly and within the required scope needed for survival and therefore it self destructs.

The bean counter math, never factors in the human element to the job. Math is nothing more than comparing cost to the competitions cost.

The TWU and American Airlines are about to make a serious error in judgement, that I believe will have a severe negative outcome.

Suggestion if you are still around after this is passed.
Spend all of your efforts preparing to move on within 4-5 years if not sooner

 

[Birdman]

No contract-no Article 38.

I'm sure your being facetious but there is a lot of confusion about abrogating a contract. The compAAny has made requests in the 1113(c) to change very specific articles in the CBA. If granted, only those requested articles can be amended and all the others remain the same, as in article 38, no? Many think the whole contract is trashed and the term sheets replace it. I don't think so.

 

[TWU informer]

I'm sure your being facetious but there is a lot of confusion about abrogating a contract. The compAAny has made requests in the 1113(c) to change very specific articles in the CBA. If granted, only those requested articles can be amended and all the others remain the same, as in article 38, no? Many think the whole contract is trashed and the term sheets replace it. I don't think so.

That is not what they will be saying at the VOTE YES rally in Tulsa next weekend.

 

[Bob Owens]

Is Retro still on the table?
Did we leave money on the table?
Did you get the release, that would save us all?
Is it the last hour of the final day yet?

Retro? No, but it was when I said that.
Money on the table? YES as long as AA is still in business and we are paid less than everyone else for doing the same work.
Release? Did I ever say I could get it? Thats up to the International. I never stopped pushing for it.
Last Hour of the fianl day. Not yet. But I still feel we have to take it there to get a fair deal.

All of these absurd claims led us nowhere but backwards. While you kept thumping your chest in Public, James C. Little was behind the scenes making sure the real TWU plan came together.

Perhaps but as long as we keep voting NO their "plan" wont come to fruition.

Look Bob, I understand why you believed in yourself and others, but when you are represented by the TWU, it doesn't matter who sits at the table or how loud they bang a drum, you are still nothing more than a patsy and you fell for the same crap that has happened at least twice in my 28 years as a TWU member. Do I blame you for having hope and wanting to be a strong union man, NO. But the longer you keep ignoring the truth and refusing to admit you were wrong, the deeper the hole gets that you are in.

Some have tried to make me their patsy, I've faced many challenges from the very top guy to stooge Presidents who IMO are looking for an International paycheck. in their fustration one has even called me Tephlon Bob, whether it was by sending guys into my Local to try and get my peers to vote for someone else, to deliberately dragging out negotiations till the company filed for BK (the week our ballotts went out) to being accused of asking for a release just so I could get reelected they have tried to break me and turn those who support me against me, I has not worked. I know I'm not the first, others have tried, and failed to make changes in this disaster, maybe I will too, but hopefully even if I do I would share my experiences with the next guy and he can find a way where others have failed, just as some who came before me have shared their experiences. I fail to see where I "fell for" their "crap". I have never claimed that our salvation lies with the TWU leadership, it lies with us becoming informed and educated and holding them accountable. Have I ever denied that the structure we have is defective? That said I've seen other Locals in the TWU that do pretty good such as Local 100 and Local 556 so the problem is really the way we here at AA are set up. Is it possible to change it? Maybe. As long as I'm here I'm going to try. You put in a lot of effort for change, you got to the point where you either decided it was not worth the effort or the desired outcome was not achievable, and you did so at great expense, both personal and financial. That was your experience and your choice. I have it easier than that, the guys are paying me to do this but there is still some personal sacifice and as long as they send me back I will continue to do what I can to try and bring about the changes I told them I would try to bring about. I've never said that fixing the TWU is or should be their only option but thats the one I'm trying to give them.

 

[787nightmare]

Man...................if you guys that are left, don't get rid of the TWU after all of this... :blink: