TWU negotiations.........what?

[Buck]

I have a feeling that the term sheet will be more of a headache for AA then for the union members. Can you imagine AA management without an excuse when things don't go right.

Strangely a missing factor is compensation. Even in the USAir term sheet. Has anyone indicated that compensation will be from bankruptcy or from a merger?

 

[TWU informer]

If the company can offer better terms in their Last Best Offer and then to choose to implement a worse agreement if it is voted down, that's absolutely pathetic! If they have a last best offer, that should be it. Don't threaten us with voting yes by offering a worse agreement if it is voted down. If you make an offer, stick to it. I might not have a billion dollars in the bank, but at least I have some moral high grounds. This is a yes voter on the T/A last year to definately a NO voter on this POS. I will be fine without working here and at least will have some dignity intact, and I haven't resorted to bankruptcy.

I feel the same way and bet this POS manipulation dies on the vine.

A BRAVE MAN IS NOT A MAN WHO IS NOT AFRAID, BUT ONE WHOSE WILL IS STRONGER THAN HIS FEAR.

 

[eolesen]

Strangely a missing factor is compensation. Even in the USAir term sheet. Has anyone indicated that compensation will be from bankruptcy or from a merger?

AA indicated no pay cuts for TWU, not sure about the top end of the APA and APFA pay scales.

On the term sheets, they did have a provision for raises with a consensual agreement.

That's all public record. No spin.

Now, if they've included pay cuts in the revised TA to save jobs, well... I guess they just didn't figure it out the first time.

 

[Buck]

AA indicated no pay cuts for TWU, not sure about the top end of the APA and APFA pay scales.

On the term sheets, they did have a provision for raises with a consensual agreement.

That's all public record. No spin.

Now, if they've included pay cuts in the revised TA to save jobs, well... I guess they just didn't figure it out the first time.

Yes, but what of the USAir term sheet? Are there any compensatory reasons to go with USAir?

 

[Bob Owens]

I've read NWA vs AFA a few times, Bob, and it really only addresses whether or not the union is entitled to self-help. I don't see where it explicitly defines what obligation there is to revert to Section 6 negotiating once new conditions are imposed following abrogation.

NWA was willing to continue negotiating post-implementation of the revised terms, so the appeals court never addressed the issue of what should happen if NWA had not been willing to continue discussions.

I suspect that is a possibility you may need to face with AMR.

Labor has already seen case law established covering a good chunk of the grey area where S.1113 and the RLA intersect. If abrogation goes forward and terms are imposed, it's quite likely that there will need to be new case law established to pick up where NWA left off.

Terms are imposed by the company not the courts because the contract no longer exists. The Courts blocked our right to self help because they said before we resort to self help we have to exhaust the process under the RLA-ie Sect 6. They did not say we could not strike, they said we had to follow the proceedures under the RLA as if the contract never existsed before we strike.It was a BS ruling that needs to be challenged and I say we should go to self help, courts be damned if the company imposes new terms.

Under the RLA the only body that can impose a contract on workers under the RLA is Congress, not a Judge in BK. In c-11 the Judge has the ability to impose temporary changes to labor contracts. Look at the precedence it sets, if a Judge can tell a Union that they have to abide by terms they did not agree to because its more important for AA to earn $3 billion in profits a year than it is for the members of the Union to pay their mortgages or medical bills then whats stopping him from telling Exxon that they have to provide fuel for $1/gallon, or the PONY they can only charge $100 for landing fees etc etc for however long AA wants them to?

 

[Bob Owens]

If the company can offer better terms in their Last Best Offer and then to choose to implement a worse agreement if it is voted down, that's absolutely pathetic! If they have a last best offer, that should be it. Don't threaten us with voting yes by offering a worse agreement if it is voted down. If you make an offer, stick to it. I might not have a billion dollars in the bank, but at least I have some moral high grounds. This is a yes voter on the T/A last year to definately a NO voter on this POS. I will be fine without working here and at least will have some dignity intact, and I haven't resorted to bankruptcy.

Exactly. This whole process is supposed to be that the company is only supposed to ask for what is necessary for the reorganization of the company, not whatever it feels it can get away with.
How is eliminating PVs necessary for the reorganization of the company when pretty much All of AAs competitors have DATs or other similar forms of Personal day flexibility?
How is rewriting all the OT rules necessary for the reorganization of the company?
How is terminating an employee for not accepting a transfer necessary for the reorganization of the company?
How is reducing vaction another week necessary for the reorganization of the company?
How is setting up an interview process for CCs necessary for the reorganization of the company?
How is eliminating letters of agreements on Holidays necessary for the reorganization of the company?
How is it a necessity that we accept less than half the Holidays at half the rate?
How is it a necessity that we allow the company to pick who gets OT, who goes on Field Trips?
How is it a necessity that we allow the company to define what a mechanic is?
How is it a necessity that we allow the company to take money thats in a seperate trust outside the company from our accounts?
How is it a necessity that we accept the worst 401k plan in the industry?
How is it a necessity that we pay more for Medical than any other airline worker?
How is it a necessity that we have no job protection language?
How is it a necessity that we allow AMR to run an unlimited parallell operation?
How is it a necessity that we accept the least amount of vacation in the Industry?
How is it a necessity that we accept the least amount of sick time?
How is it a necessity that we accept the least amount of IOD time?
AA says we need to do this because they need to make $3billion a year in profits.
How is it a necessity that we accept the lowest wages in the industry, what AA is offering us in 2018 is less than what UAL and most other are making now.
How is it a necessity that AA needs to make $3billion a year in profits to remain in business when in over 75 years of existance they have never made such profits, in fact no airline has?

The fact is that according to their business plan AA does not have to touch ANY labor agreement. Their plan says they will make $3billion in profits with the $1.25 billion in labor cuts. So by eliminating the leases on airplanes they dont fly and other changes they were able to make in BK they would be making $1.75 billion a year in profits without touching any of the labor agreements. $1.75 billion, thats more than half of what the entire industry posted in 2010!

 

[Bob Owens]

Strangely a missing factor is compensation. Even in the USAir term sheet. Has anyone indicated that compensation will be from bankruptcy or from a merger?

The term sheet, for six more years, if we agree to it. So I'm a NO for USAIR as well. If they want to run the company fine, but I dont care who signs the check, it needs to bring me up to the same neighborhood as my peers. We cant let AA, whether its Horton or Parker drag the whole profession down again, like we did in 2003.

A lot of hype has been thrown out there about firing AA's current management, but if it means settlling for pretty much what they were offering what good does that do us? The only plusses I see are more Holidays and cheaper medical, but the same crappy wages and the 401k is no better. I say NO to both AA management and USAIRs proposals.

All these guys are buddies, Parker, Horton , they all started at AA. Will AA-USAIR merge? Maybe. Do we have any real say in the matter? No. Am I willing to cut a bad deal for us to help Parker sell it to the creditors? NO. What does it mean for us? The usual problems of integrating seniority lists etc. Is it worth us deviating from trying to get wages and benefits in line with the rest of the industry? NO. Is it worth making yet another sacrifice to make the same people richer? NO. Is it worth dragging down the industry by helping the Centerport gang create a mega cariier that pays the lowest wages in the industry? NO. The only good thing about USAIR is it shows we dont have any faith in the leadership of the company, for that alone we should be 'open" to a USAIR takeover.

This BK is one of the biggest scams ever. A company that has $4 billion in cash, wants the court to abrogate contracts and threaten workers into accepting deals that would allow them to earn $3 billion a year in profits, thats a double digit profit margiin, something never seen before or imagined in the labor intensive high overhead transport industry. It would be a cause for celebration on Wall Street as the nation takes yet another step towards Plutocracy. Why negotaite with your workers? Just go to BK court and let the Judge help you get whatever you want! This time its a company with $4billion in cash that simply wants to be the most profitable carrier ever, next time it will be a company thats profitable, just not as profitable as AA. Look for UAL to do the same thing next year, demanding that they too need to make $3 billion a year in profits and getting the money from their workers as well.

Our Unions, as long as the guys at the top are getting their six figures and positive space first class travel will continue to keep us quiet, keep telling us to live and fight another day, a bad job is better than no job, we need to elect labor friendly politicians so they can change the laws more in our favor etc etc.

We have the right to either accept or reject. Look at who is selling this, none of them have to live under it. Even if they arent saying "Vote Yes, they are saying that you really have no other options, you do. Dont believe them, demand that your Union leaders start acting like a Union leaders and lead. When all the language comes out spend the time to really see what you are giving up and compare it to what other workers doing what you do are getting for their labor, in fact you should make the sacrifice and not volunteer for OT, go home, spend that extra time with your family and look at the future that AA is proposing for you and your family. Factor in what inflation will continue to do to your ability to provide for your family, the $3000 deductible on coverage that will double in cost, the elimination of the Pension which will require that you put money in a 401K, further eroding your ability to pay your current bills, the fact that they want you to hand over thousands of dollars that were put away to pay for our retiree medical over to them while they also take away the Retiree medical and scores of other concessions that will reduce your income. They want you to continue to accept lower wages and standards of living, you will be worse off in 2018 than you are now, accept that both those who represent us and those who employ us, will continue to get riich off us and not giving or making sure we get our fair share, or we can tell them both "NO" this is "Rediculously Bad" , its unacceptable and no matter what you do, even if its forced on us we still will not say YES.

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

I could be wrong, but the way I'm reading it is that the 1113 "Wish List" will be what is in effect with the exceptions being what is in the US term sheet.So it appears compensation remains status quo.Your mileage may vary.

Only thing that is gonna' change is the faces blowing smoke up our arses.

 

[Hopeful]

The term sheet, for six more years. So I'm a NO for USAIR as well. If they want to run the company fine, but I dont care who signs the check, it needs to bring me up to the same neighborhood as my peers. We cant let AA drag the whole profession down again, like we did in 2003.

A lot of hype has been thrown out there about firing AA's current management, but if it means settlling for pretty much what they were offering what good does that do us? The only plusses I see are more Holidays and cheaper medical, but the same crappy wages. I say NO to both AA management and USAIR.

Does everyone see this USAIR merger support form the TWU as only a job saver?
JOBS JOBS JOBS....

I have a sickening feeling that when the TWU decides to show us the T/A...We are going to sacrifice even more to save jobs...
So when they say the LBO is worse than the term sheets, they are only referring to JOBS.....

GO ASK LITTE, GLESS, DRUMMOND, CONLEY, VEIDETICH AND LITTLE'S SECRETARY WHAT THEY'RE GIVING BACK....



THE TWU MUST GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MCI transplant]

Does everyone see this USAIR merger support form the TWU as only a job saver?
JOBS JOBS JOBS....

I have a sickening feeling that when the TWU decides to show us the T/A...We are going to sacrifice even more to save jobs...
So when they say the LBO is worse than the term sheets, they are only referring to JOBS.....

GO ASK LITTE, GLESS, DRUMMOND, CONLEY, VEIDETICH AND LITTLE'S SECRETARY WHAT THEY'RE GIVING BACK....



THE TWU MUST GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<_< ------ Hopeful, How long have people been saying that? --------- But nothing seems to be happening!!!!

 

[MCI transplant]

Does everyone see this USAIR merger support form the TWU as only a job saver?
JOBS JOBS JOBS....

I have a sickening feeling that when the TWU decides to show us the T/A...We are going to sacrifice even more to save jobs...
So when they say the LBO is worse than the term sheets, they are only referring to JOBS.....

GO ASK LITTE, GLESS, DRUMMOND, CONLEY, VEIDETICH AND LITTLE'S SECRETARY WHAT THEY'RE GIVING BACK....



THE TWU MUST GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<_< ------ Hopeful, How long have people been saying that? --------- But nothing seems to be happening!!!!

 

[Hopeful]

<_< ------ Hopeful, How long have people been saying that? --------- But nothing seems to be happening!!!!

You're absolutely right, MCI....
But now, thanks to the TWU and their "job saving" T/A.....If it saves the 3000 or so jobs that is being mentioned, then you can count on 3000 YES votes as well as 3000 YES LET'S KEEP THE TWU votes. I hope not, but put yourself in the shoes of one who is losing his/her job.
Add that to those around the system that may buy into the TWU fear campaign might be yes votes as well.

I can't wait to see the TWU spin doctors do their thing when the job saving T/A is made public!

 

[CMH_GSE]

I could be wrong, but the way I'm reading it is that the 1113 "Wish List" will be what is in effect with the exceptions being what is in the US term sheet.So it appears compensation remains status quo.Your mileage may vary.

Only thing that is gonna' change is the faces blowing smoke up our arses.

I've read the term sheets for the Mechanics and Fleet.
I can't disagree with anything you said here, it's so very disappointing.

The Fleet term sheets save 30 cities that were being closed by AA for clerks.
I read nothing about ANY cities being saved for Mechanics, Title I or TitleII.
For that matter, I saw NOTHING about Title II in the US Airways term sheets.

Now it's down to seeing what the LBO has in mind since that is what we would work under even with US Airways, but with less match going into 401K and more costly medical, and NO profit sharing (the US Airways Terms, change all 3 of these for the worse)

Amazing.

 

[Bob Owens]

You're absolutely right, MCI....
But now, thanks to the TWU and their "job saving" T/A.....If it saves the 3000 or so jobs that is being mentioned, then you can count on 3000 YES votes as well as 3000 YES LET'S KEEP THE TWU votes. I hope not, but put yourself in the shoes of one who is losing his/her job.
Add that to those around the system that may buy into the TWU fear campaign might be yes votes as well.

I can't wait to see the TWU spin doctors do their thing when the job saving T/A is made public!

I'm sure that the ATD will be doing the fear, fear, fear campaign as I've been the target of it for many, many months now. I hear there's a big show in Tulsa next Saturday with all the top fear mongers to be there. Just remember they are being paid to sell the deal, they dont have to live under the deal. Like I've said from the beginning I didnt think AA could cut 4500 heads from maintenance, and they would spin this to make it look like they were "saving jobs" they meant to keep anyway. AA cant keep up with the work they have and "capacity is tight" in the MRO world, AAR said they are short at least 500 mechanics and the greatest challenge for the MRO industry is attracting and retaining workers. The company admitted that they would likely have to pay a premium to get space. Yet here is the ATD leading the charge of giving concessions for the promise of Jobs, in the meantime they are agreeing to language that would allow all those jobs to be sent out.Six carriers have merged into three and none of them shed mechanics after the mergers. The supply of mechanics is shrinking and our Union is softly telling us to discount our labor for another six years, at the very least. Its 1995 again, only worse.

I still say keep the job worth coming back to. If you are going to make Timco wages then why not just go to TIMCO or AAR and at least have recall rights back to a good job at AA? Every year at least 500 guys leave, so even if AA did cut 4500 jobs, which I doubt, at the most it would take 9 years for AA to recall everyone, probably much less, out of the 300 that were riffed from NY1 they only got 20 to come back. At that rate it could take less than a year. With the SIS and early out AA will be hiring off the street within a few years. So what would we have really saved?

I'm not so sure that all the "Saved" jobs will be yes votes. Lets say you are an AMT in Tulsa, and under the deal they are cutting your pay by $10/hr, are you going to vote yes? Thats 800 no votes to me. You also have the skilled guys who work systems , engines and other high dollar work that even our peers who went through BK kept, they will be making much less than their airline peers,Then you have AFW, thats another 1000 or so NO votes and the 500 they are going to lay off in the rest of the system, so between the 1500 or so getting laid off, the 1300 Title II workers that dont get the Wage Adjustment, the 800 being bumped down and the 3500 line AMTs who would be agreeing to make less in 2018 than UAL is now we should be able to shoot it down even if they are successful at stampeding the buffalo off the cliff down there at the meetings in Tulsa. Management admitted that this offer is "rediculously bad" but they also admitted that they only have to get 50% plus one to accept it. So their strategy is get as many as they can in Tulsa and hope that enough older guys on the line vote for the early out without realizing that their Prefunding match is really paying for it, if they are lucky.

The AATD has done their best to push the Prefunding issue under the rug. From saying "its just a different way of paying for it" to saying nothing at all. Jim Fudge and I were pretty much the instigators in making everyone aware of it. They must hope that I will just shut up about it. Any real union would do all they could to let their members know that they are agreeing to give away something thats outside the court. They sat down on the Supplimental Medical as well. the company kept the $70miilion of the members money and the Union did nothing about it. The company is now looking to swipe the $120 million in the prefunding match. Some of our older guys have over $50k in there! Imagine accepting a paltry $10k extra in return for giving up $50 K because your Union failed to inform you of it? For some the $10 k could be more than they have in matching funds, but by allowing the company to take it from everyone upon passage the company still makes out on the deal, UAL offered their guys $75k this year for an early buy out and Stock, notes and other monies to everyone. Figure if 500 people vote yes and do so for the early out and that takes them to 50% plus one it only cost them $5million to get our (M&R) $57million. Like I said they are shooting for 50% plus one. There will be other offers after this, but they have nothing to lose by throwing out this "rediculously bad" offer, if we buy it, they think they win. When we #### they can say like they did after the 95 deal, "you guys accepted it". For the International acceptance means they save a lot of money and Article 28 stays in place, they can keep their cars and six figure salaries. So for both of the company and the International acceptance by us is hands down a better deal than going into abrogation and all the expenses , disrputions and deteriorations of service that would likely follow, and remember that the lawyers are hired by the International to look out for the Internationals interests, not yours. Sure the International will say "Its up to you", "I'm not going to tell you what you should do" "what about the guy with the sick kid who needs the medical", but they will present no plan for victory and tell you all the bad things, worst case scenarios, that can happen to you, not them, if you reject. In other words a soft sell. Those are some of the things they wont tell you in Tulsa. They will tell you that if the deal gets abrogated that you are an employee "at will" and they can walk up and fire anyone for any or no reason,(not true in many states) then in the next sentence they will say you are working under an "imposed contract", well which is it? No contract or an imposed one that still has "just Cause"? They wont tell you that if the contract is abrogated, thrown out, that you dont have to pay dues because there is no Article 38. They will tell you its better to live under these concessions than have no job, in the meantime everyone else doing the same thing we do gets paid a lot better, and all the people we move arent going to stay home because we would not work for less. They will tell you any and everything they can to get you to vote YES without telling to to vote Yes because its better for them to have this all settled, not because its better for us who have to live under it.

Voting No will be a rough road for all of us, the International as well, because if the contract is abrogated and they do like they have for the last four years (six if you count the fact that they did not do the early openers as promised in 2003) and refuse to take an agressive position in getting to a fair deal in a timely manner the members can just stop paying them. No contract-no Article 38.

 

[Dilligas]

Six carriers have merged into three and none of them shed mechanics after the mergers.

That's because they eliminated them during the BK process as they outsourced, and the mergers came afterwards, as AA is doing during the BK process.

Your jobs are being eliminated as part of the BK and outsourcing, not because of any merger that may or may not happen.

Tell the NW and UA guys that were put on the street they didn't lose any jobs or shops.

I respect your stand but find some of your statements misleading.