TWU negotiations.........what?

[odie01]

Probably true, however if you believe the TWU is working for the mechanics, you also haves thing for crackers.

Buck
I am overcome by the smell of butt crack, the only thing the twu is good for is a 650 dollar write off at the end of each year.

 

[Barfbag]

No, I'm an American Citizen, Unlike your president. His past is as grey as our term sheet or the companies business plan.

You don't get it.. The big picture here is you're collateral damage in the air wars..thats it.. you're just a widget that has fallen from the assembly line...forget the TWU, IAM, AMFA, and all the other alphabet unions..they're more business than labor.

We were all supposed to stand behind PATCO and we didn't... We ( LABOR) allowed The Frank Lorenzos of the world to rise and distroy this industry one airline at a time.

Now it's too late..so get your..Shoe Shine Box .. ( tool box ) and stand on the next unemployed line and stand proud as an American Citizen that you are or wimp and quit the industry as I did.

 

[AA-MRO.COM]

Transport Workers Union International president Jim Little: "We have always been prepared to fight for our members ---either by reaching an agreement or going to court. We are prepared for either eventuality. While we would prefer a consensual deal with AMR, our lawyers also are preparing to defend our members and their families before the judge."

You left out the rest of the speech...

"and make no mistake we here at the international level of the ATD will not be adversely affected we will retain our six figure salarys and union paid automobiles in order to continue the fight for you our members. We will save you from yourselves no matter what the cost ! ! !"

:blink:

 

[Buck]

You left out the rest of the speech...

"and make no mistake we here at the international level of the ATD will not be adversely affected we will retain our six figure salarys and union paid automobiles in order to continue the fight for you our members. We will save you from yourselves no matter what the cost ! ! !"

:blink:

Yes it is always the last part of every one of his speeches.

The TWU defending or negotiating on my behalf scares the hell out of me. I have always been afraid of them spreading our wealth to others based on what I see as flawed unionism. Industrial Unionism will be our downturn again. Let's not negotiate for the mechanics, but for all Titles , because everyone is the same, not based on one's skills.

 

[Overspeed]

You don't get it.. The big picture here is you're collateral damage in the air wars..thats it.. you're just a widget that has fallen from the assembly line...forget the TWU, IAM, AMFA, and all the other alphabet unions..they're more business than labor.

We were all supposed to stand behind PATCO and we didn't... We ( LABOR) allowed The Frank Lorenzos of the world to rise and distroy this industry one airline at a time.

Now it's too late..so get your..Shoe Shine Box .. ( tool box ) and stand on the next unemployed line and stand proud as an American Citizen that you are or wimp and quit the industry as I did.

Sad that all the hard work that was done for over 100 years in the US was undone by the de-regulation binge in the late 70s and 80s in a matter of a few short decades.

 

[Bob Owens]

I didn't forget anything. Little contacted the Obama "insiders" and they told the TWU that there would be no release until well after the election at the earliest. It's not just the TWU that's a political machine, the US government has an agenda and for Obama, it's getting re-elected. Now that may cost Obama your vote but I bet they took that in to account when Obama's people said release is not happening.

So, when you know the deck is not stacked in your favor (labor) then do you still beat your fists on the table asking for release when you know BK is a strong possibility at the time? So was Little telling the committee the truth about not getting released incompetence? Really? Bob was playing poker and went all in with a 2-7 offsuit and AA called his bluff.

Lets see, when we have a "friendly" in the White Houes its "Dont do anything because we need to get him reelected", when we have a Hostile in there its "dont do anything because the White House is Hostile. (Funny but AMTRAK ended up with a fairly good PEB under Bush). The message is basically "accept whatever we bring back and dont do anything ever". Show me an example of where a release was denied because of an election. The fact is some were just dreaming up excuses for not asking for a release. We voted down our TA in August of 2010, Obama had only begun his term a year and a half earlier. Instead of asking for a release the International didnt even reconvene the committee until several months later, then we only met with the company in December, four months later. The union should have requested the release when the contract was rejected in August of 2010. I spoke in favor of requesting a release on multiple occasions, but we could not get the majority. Early 2011 was spent going over the 1/7 rule and 7 day coverage. In either April or May, after those issues were settled I made another request to ask to be released, a real one, not a fake one where we just said that we asked but told the mediator that we really dont want to be released. We were told to "wait till June", In June we were told that the sub-committee did not have the authority to ask to be released and to wait till July, in July we were told to wait till former AIRCON President and Republican appointee to the NMB Larry Gibbons chimed in , that he would put a fire under the company and get things moving in August and if they did not move that the International would demand a release. We were told that Gibbons, despite his Aircon histotry, would be favorable to labor. He was not, He was very aggressive against the Union, telling us that we should give the company what they want because they were losing money (the largest aircraft order in history aside) and since they didnt want to waste the Governments money they were breaking off Mediation, that we could ask to be released but that in his "opinion" the President would block the release, OK, thats called a PEB, he didnt think that would happen either but failed to give a legal explanation why, he was full of ####. Him and Burdette are obviously buddies from their days at Aircon.

The company said that they were willing to talk as long as talks "were productive" so the International stressed that we should keep talking even though the company made it clear they had no intentions on bringing us up to industry standards and wanted conncessions, we still didnt have enough guys to pass a vote to ask for release. The International and the guys who were against release said lets see what happens next month, then the next now its October and with the change in administration in DFW we had enough on a regular vote to ask for release, there was a call for the Roll Call and the motion was voted down. The Motion that was rejected was to ask for a release in time for the clock to end jiust before Thanksgiving. This would maximize pressure on the company to move. One of the guys who voted against release then made a motion to request a release if we did not have a contract by the end of November, in other words at the worst time of year to be released, just after New Years, that motion passed, the company filed the day before we were to ask for release.

You have been spouting off about how "Bob did this", "Bob did that". The fact is that I do not control the process, never said I did, I'm one guy on a committee of over 20 "witnesses" where a shrinking number do whatever the International wants them to do. We are the fall guys for when the membership realizes they did not get what they need, "Dont blame the International, your committee voted to bring this back", some are able to slide into a six figure salary where they never have to run for election again, or live under the terms they helped sell, some get free cars (courtesy of your dues), two pensions and fly around on positive space first class passes for both business and personal use (a gift, or "enhancement" from the company), others get voted out and return to their box. When I go back to my box I will do so with a clear conscience that I did what I thought was best for my profession and all who work in it, sure, some will be laid off but they will have something good to come back to, not a job where under the guise of trying to "save jobs' we in reality destroy the profession as we help the company lower our compensation. I will not help make this a job not worth coming back to. (When the International ran into financial difficulties did we see International employees taking paycuts or did they cut heads? They cut heads, as they should, as we should. Thats why we value seniority.)The International wanted the members to accept the TA, maybe the motive to delay requesting a release until they filed for BK was to punish us all, ("See I told you so") and hope that they could spin the blame on those of us who spoke out against it. You called me the Teflon President, why would you say that? Could it be that despite the field trip to JFK the day the ballotts for our Local Election went out, where several sitting Local Presidents told the guys in JFK that they were at a critical junction in negoatiations and were set to bring back a good contract with GEO pay that they needed to keep my predecessor in office, that I still won the election? Could it be that despite the fact that they were able to drag out asking for a release for nearly a year and a half that I was relected? By the way every one of those guys who came to JFK were voted out of office by their members. Guess they couldnt hide behind an alias. I shared what I knew and what I believed with the membership and urged them not to give in or give up, but I made no promises. The majority felt the same way. The International did everything they could to prevent us from legitimately asking for a release until it was too late, now the company has availed themselves to the C-11 process and we have even higher obsticles to overcome. I never claimed that I would get anything, only that the members should not accept an inferior deal. The fact is there still is money there, but the company has decided they want to spend it elsewhere and they want to use the BK court to help them get their way. The members can not stop the Judge from abrogating the contract, they can not force the Union to take a more agressive stance and challenge the exclusiuon of Airline workers from 1167 but they can continue to say NO to inferior deals.

 

[Overspeed]

The fact is we are legally just witnesses to the process, the members only real input into this is how they vote. I never claimed that I would get anything, only that the members should not accept an inferior deal. The fact is there still is money there, but the company has decided they want to spend it elsewhere and the want to use the BK court to help them get their way. The members can not stop the Judge from abrogating the contract, they can not force the Union to take a more agressive stance and challenge the exclusiuon of Airline workers from 1167 but they can continue to say NO to inferior deals.

The why show up if you are all just witnesses? Because that's a lie. You have input and you have a process roll call or not. You knew the rules and laws and you still write and talk all this bombastic nonsense about how its the NMB, TWU Int'l, ATD, Obama, AA management, and the Bankruptcy Judge who is in control and causing all your woes. I'm calling BS on you Bob because you know how the process works but you whine about there still being money on the table. Yeah, but we can't touch it and you are powerless to do anything about it. So you recommended a no vote for what you call an inferior contract and now we are getting reamed now with what, number 8 in pay after we had number two in our pocket? Awesome man, you scored by voting that down. You showed everyone else who's boss. Kick ass Bob!

And great try on the blaming everyone else for your failed strategy. You have learned the art of misdirection well.

So as you already knew and reinforced in your post, we do not abrogate a contract, a judge does and that is where we are headed apparently. You knew that we were fighting an impossible battle. Whine about how its everyone else's fault but keep in mind, if the 4,300 that will now lose their jobs and the 6,000 others who will now get number 8 in pay were told the truth about the big bat that was swinging their way, more would have voted yes and would have passed. Again, the MCT's voted yes and get to keep their pay raise in BK and we are arguing to keep ours and lose a ton of jobs. Nice Bob, big freaking win there. Number two won't do but number 8 will. You rule man!

 

[Mr Red]

The why show up if you are all just witnesses? Because that's a lie. You have input and you have a process roll call or not. You knew the rules and laws and you still write and talk all this bombastic nonsense about how its the NMB, TWU Int'l, ATD, Obama, AA management, and the Bankruptcy Judge who is in control and causing all your woes. I'm calling BS on you Bob because you know how the process works but you whine about there still being money on the table. Yeah, but we can't touch it and you are powerless to do anything about it. So you recommended a no vote for what you call an inferior contract and now we are getting reamed now with what, number 8 in pay after we had number two in our pocket? Awesome man, you scored by voting that down. You showed everyone else who's boss. Kick ass Bob!

And great try on the blaming everyone else for your failed strategy. You have learned the art of misdirection well.

So as you already knew and reinforced in your post, we do not abrogate a contract, a judge does and that is where we are headed apparently. You knew that we were fighting an impossible battle. Whine about how its everyone else's fault but keep in mind, if the 4,300 that will now lose their jobs and the 6,000 others who will now get number 8 in pay were told the truth about the big bat that was swinging their way, more would have voted yes and would have passed. Again, the MCT's voted yes and get to keep their pay raise in BK and we are arguing to keep ours and lose a ton of jobs. Nice Bob, big freaking win there. Number two won't do but number 8 will. You rule man!

If their were an election tomorrow between Little and Owens ,do I need to tell you who the winner would be! Oh I'm sorry the TWU INT doesn't hold democratic elections.

 

[TWU informer]

The why show up if you are all just witnesses? Because that's a lie. You have input and you have a process roll call or not. You knew the rules and laws and you still write and talk all this bombastic nonsense about how its the NMB, TWU Int'l, ATD, Obama, AA management, and the Bankruptcy Judge who is in control and causing all your woes. I'm calling BS on you Bob because you know how the process works but you whine about there still being money on the table. Yeah, but we can't touch it and you are powerless to do anything about it. So you recommended a no vote for what you call an inferior contract and now we are getting reamed now with what, number 8 in pay after we had number two in our pocket? Awesome man, you scored by voting that down. You showed everyone else who's boss. Kick ass Bob!

And great try on the blaming everyone else for your failed strategy. You have learned the art of misdirection well.

So as you already knew and reinforced in your post, we do not abrogate a contract, a judge does and that is where we are headed apparently. You knew that we were fighting an impossible battle. Whine about how its everyone else's fault but keep in mind, if the 4,300 that will now lose their jobs and the 6,000 others who will now get number 8 in pay were told the truth about the big bat that was swinging their way, more would have voted yes and would have passed. Again, the MCT's voted yes and get to keep their pay raise in BK and we are arguing to keep ours and lose a ton of jobs. Nice Bob, big freaking win there. Number two won't do but number 8 will. You rule man!

And so if we are fighting an impossible battle. And it is has nothing to do with failures of NMB, TWU Int'l, AFL-CIO ATD, Obama, AA management, and the Bankruptcy Judge....then who? Although Bob voiced his ooposition to the T/A, and many followed, the impossible battle statement indicates that you know more than you claim.

WHO is failing? You already ignored my first request for this answer. Maybe you can answer now? Didn't the impossible battle come before the NO VOTE?

 

[Bob Owens]

I'm calling BS on you Bob

"I'm calling BS on you"?

Your grammer is infantile.

The why show up if you are all just witnesses? Because that's a lie.

Read Article 47. The very end. Read several other lawsuits including the one that several Presidents filed against Seperate Locals and the one we filed against the Concessions of 2003 or the one Local 501 filed last summer against the outsourcing of the JFK Ramp. None of the Locals or their Presidents have a legal standing in the contract between the TWU International and AA. Time and time again the courts sided with the International when they claimed that all committees (that includes the Presidents Council, the Negotaiting Committee, The Benifits Committee, The Working Womens Committee etc, etc.) exist at the behest of the International , they are advosory in capacity and do not carry any authority over the International. The only reason why issues are put before the Committees for a vote is so the International can convince the members that people they elect make the decisions. The International can approve all those LOAs and LOMs without putting it to a vote, there is no legal requrement for them to have the Presidents vote. Tell me who is lying here?

You have input and you have a process roll call or not.

Yes I can speak there but that still does not make me anything more in the legal sense than a witness.

And great try on the blaming everyone else for your failed strategy. You have learned the art of misdirection well.

Ah but I could learn so much more from you couldnt I?

So as you already knew and reinforced in your post, we do not abrogate a contract, a judge does and that is where we are headed apparently. You knew that we were fighting an impossible battle.

Impossiible battle no, the fact is there has not been a battle involving the mechanics at AA since 1969 and our willingness to submit instead of fight has cost us, and the rest of the profession, dearly.

Whine about how its everyone else's fault but keep in mind, if the 4,300 that will now lose their jobs and the 6,000 others who will now get number 8 in pay were told the truth about the big bat that was swinging their way, more would have voted yes and would have passed.

BK or not the pendulem is swinging, look at the OT across the system, not just at AA but others as well. Look at the articles about how AAR cant get workers, look at what UPS threw at their guys-in 2001 we made around the same, and you know what, they outsourced all their OH then to!

You claim 4300 will lose their jobs, well let me ask you this, why hasnt the company laid off anyone in maintenance yet? They have around 1700 without system protection, they could lay off that many and tell us to grieve it, which would then be dumped into the pile with all the rest of the grievances in C-11. I do think there will be layoffs as some planes are outsourced, and as new planes come on line the headcount will shrink even more but I dont think our ratio of mechanics per airplane will shrink below what UALs is as the ASK proposes. I dont think the company is looking to dump 4300 mechanics, I think they want to have 9500 of the lowest paid mechanics in the industry with a set of work rules that they think they can use to make us jump through hoops for morsals. They want language to allow them to outsource and layoff at will to use as a threat to drive up productivity. The reduction in headcount would have occured regardless, regardless of the TA, regardless of BK, didnt we lose over 4000 mechanics after 2001?

Again, the MCT's voted yes and get to keep their pay raise in BK and we are arguing to keep ours and lose a ton of jobs. Nice Bob, big freaking win there. Number two won't do but number 8 will. You rule man!

Yep, and they lost their Prefunding match. For some in our group its a small fortune. If it had passed all those under 50 would have lost theirs and there's no way they would have, or could have been expected, to help those who still had it keep it.

You have not and will not see me advocating the passage of a deal that would put us at number 8, I'd rather see them liquidate. (Hey that rhymes)

"Number 8 no way, go ahead and liquidate!"

 

[Show me the money]

Bob is dead on. There are still a few who believe that we have some say as to what is going on. Replies that ask is this an emotional response will not face reality. Again I say WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!! No contract that exists at AA will be null and void. This is exactly what the company wanted. They are going to mirror our operations to look like the rest of the industry. They will do what they need to do as cheaply as they need to do. Bankruptcy is the only way they could do this with no hindrance from the work groups . We will vote on nothing, and what is left will be what they impose on who is here for the next six years. Those are the facts and there is nothing we can do. We will be casualties under the guise of company fiscal viability. Hold your nose it is only going to get worse for the working guy.

 

[strikeforce]

The why show up if you are all just witnesses? Because that's a lie. You have input and you have a process roll call or not. You knew the rules and laws and you still write and talk all this bombastic nonsense about how its the NMB, TWU Int'l, ATD, Obama, AA management, and the Bankruptcy Judge who is in control and causing all your woes. I'm calling BS on you Bob because you know how the process works but you whine about there still being money on the table. Yeah, but we can't touch it and you are powerless to do anything about it. So you recommended a no vote for what you call an inferior contract and now we are getting reamed now with what, number 8 in pay after we had number two in our pocket? Awesome man, you scored by voting that down. You showed everyone else who's boss. Kick ass Bob!

And great try on the blaming everyone else for your failed strategy. You have learned the art of misdirection well.

So as you already knew and reinforced in your post, we do not abrogate a contract, a judge does and that is where we are headed apparently. You knew that we were fighting an impossible battle. Whine about how its everyone else's fault but keep in mind, if the 4,300 that will now lose their jobs and the 6,000 others who will now get number 8 in pay were told the truth about the big bat that was swinging their way, more would have voted yes and would have passed. Again, the MCT's voted yes and get to keep their pay raise in BK and we are arguing to keep ours and lose a ton of jobs. Nice Bob, big freaking win there. Number two won't do but number 8 will. You rule man!

If you want to place blame for our downfall at negotiations please include ALL local presidents, Little, Phat Don, Gless, Gordon, Drummond, and all of the INTL stooges. You blame Bob because he's an easy target on an airline forum. The real failures comes from the membership for sitting around and allowing this non-sense to continue. Secret society negotiations is nothing new. The membership obviously doesn't want to take a vested interest in making sure the TWU properly represents us. We have done nothing to change this. Twice, the membership had a chance to change this secret society, and WE blew it! Look in the mirror and pat yourself on the back for our demise. We are sheep, weak, passive and dummies for keeping the TWU!

 

[AA89]

Bob is dead on. There are still a few who believe that we have some say as to what is going on. Replies that ask is this an emotional response will not face reality. Again I say WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!! No contract that exists at AA will be null and void. This is exactly what the company wanted. They are going to mirror our operations to look like the rest of the industry. They will do what they need to do as cheaply as they need to do. Bankruptcy is the only way they could do this with no hindrance from the work groups . We will vote on nothing, and what is left will be what they impose on who is here for the next six years. Those are the facts and there is nothing we can do. We will be casualties under the guise of company fiscal viability. Hold your nose it is only going to get worse for the working guy.

Hey I have a request of you guys with the crystal ball that is telling you what the company is planning and what maintenance will look like in a year.
Can you check on my stock portfolio and give me a heads up please?

 

[iluvaa]

Question for Bob since he is the only leader with balls. If there was to be an unapproved action to take a stand who would take charge, I've said all along to my co-workers the only way to fix things is to break the law. Hell I would love to spend the night in jail for our cause but im a nobody who would follow me. Its time for our leaders to grow a set, I think they would be very surprised how much support they have I will fight like hell for a strong leader. Just my thoughts

 

[Buck]

Latest info from neg., expect something is going to happen pretty quick, Title I 1,200- 1,600 going to street, system wide. Last proposal from the TWU w as 4 year deal, Company wants $210M from M&E.